Where Do You Draw The Line? Insects? Plants? Bacteria?
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One of the questions I often hear as a vegan is this:
“Where do you draw the line?”
…Insects?
…Plants?
…Bacteria?
I usually say that I draw the line between animals and plants because of two reasons:
- I don’t have to eat animals to survive
- I have to eat plants to survive
It’s simple to me. If you don’t need to kill or harm another sentient being, then you shouldn’t kill or harm another sentient being.
But I also like Compassion Over Killing’s response to this question:
“If the only morally relevant characteristic is the capacity to suffer, then the vast majority of animals abused in the United States today would qualify for moral status. All the animals used for food, fur, animal research, and entertainment possess a central nervous system and are capable of experiencing pain. There are some animals (such as insects) who we are less certain experience pain. It is up to each individual to decide where she or he feels the line should be drawn exactly. Plants and bacteria almost certainly do not experience pain, as they lack any nervous system at all. Nevertheless, even if one wanted to kill the fewest number of plants possible, one would be vegan. We eat substantially fewer plants by consuming them directly, rather than funneling them through farmed animals, who are extremely inefficient in converting plants to protein.”
Eating lower in the food chain saves both animal and plant lives. If one were to consider plants worthy of some level of ethical treatment, one would have to believe killing few plants is better than killing many, therefore one would likely choose veganism over omnivorism.
Ultimately, we all draw our lines somewhere. Many omnivores draw their lines between highly intelligent animals and animals of lower intelligence. For example, many omnivores will not eat chimpanzees or dolphins but will eat chickens and fish. Many will not eat animals considered pets, even if they are the same species as animals considered food.
Some lines are more rational than others. The vegan line (between plants and animals) is more rational and more consistent. Vegans don’t harm or kill other sentient beings, period. Vegans don’t use intelligence, cuteness, or pet-status to determine nonhuman animals’ worth. In a vegan’s eyes, all animals are worthwhile.
COK has a great response to the intelligence issue, too:
“If someone can feel pain, does it matter how smart she or he is? We would never claim that infants or severely mentally retarded adults should be used in painful experiments, have their skin worn as clothing, hunted for sport, used for our entertainment, or eaten merely because they are less rational than we are. When it comes to experiencing pain, other animals are our equals.”
To the vegans reading this, how do you explain your line?
Basically, what you just said, close to the end, that we “don’t use intelligence, cuteness, or pet-status to determine nonhuman animals’ worth. In our eyes, all animals are worthwhile”. This is what I usually say in response to those questions.
Andrea N.’s last blog post..Farfalle ao pesto com couve crespa e lingüiça vegana
Yeah, Andrea, that’s good. I think it’s really very sad how many people seem to need these arbitrary lines. I think the vegan “line” makes a whole lot more sense than the omnivore line(s). At least we’re consistent. We don’t eat animals. Omnivores don’t eat pets or smart animals or very large animals or most carnivores…
That’s another thing… Omnivores often say “Humans are on the top of the food chain. We should eat animals; they’d eat us.” But if you really think about it:
a) we’re not at the top of the food chain; humans rarely eat lions, tigers, bears, sharks, and other large carnivores, and
b) the animals we eat most are herbivores (cows, chickens, lamb, turkey, pigs) so no, they wouldn’t eat us.
The human roll in the food chain is completely arbitrary. Humans have free will and can choose where to eat in the food chain. We can choose to consume in an animal-friendly way or not. There’s nothing “natural” about our current food production and consumption. Omnivores’ excuses are worthless.
I’ve never considered myself to be an animal rights activist. But the more I learn the more appalled I am at the barbarism that we perpetrate as a species. Baby Seal Hunt.
I used to draw the line at four-legged animals, fish and fowl seemed much less intelligent, and therefore it was okay to eat them. Then I went vegan (motivated by a desire for better health and a better earth). Now I draw my line at plants. After being vegan for nine months, I know I will NEVER eat animal flesh again. I will not consume dairy products, nor will I eat eggs. I have seen and read too much to allow myself to participate in the needless brutality that is perpetrated against these animals. I am not a barbarian. I will not eat as one.
Jane of VeganBits.com
Jane Wright’s last blog post..Trader Joe’s Chicken-Less Strips
I have one line only and that is the vegan line. I eat nothing that has been given birth to.
[COK, from above:]
“There are some animals (such as insects) who we are less certain experience pain. It is up to each individual to decide where she or he feels the line should be drawn exactly.”
People will believe whatever they want, but it is incorrect to suggest that the intentional act of harming insects may be considered “vegan”. Absolute bollocks!!
“it is incorrect to suggest that the intentional act of harming insects may be considered “vegan”. Absolute bollocks!!”
regalvegan, I completely agree with you
FYI, here is a good podcast on the subject of insects:
http://cdn2.libsyn.com/compassionatecooks/response_insects_killed.mp3
A problems here.
sentient: Having sense perception conscious or Experiencing sensation or feeling.
Although insects do not have a central nervous system and there for do not experience pain as we do. They do have sensations (can detect damage) and also have senses which in turn means they have perception. Which means they are sentient beings.
There are, in fact, medical conditions which can selectively kill nociceptors – the best known is leprosy, but there are others.
Does this mean its ok to kill people who dont feel pain or who are unconsious? If not then insects desirve to live to.
I actually follow my own version of a Jain diet. I don’t eat any animal ingredients, fungus/anything that is fermented with fungus (vinegar, tempeh, etc.), or anything that the entire plant must be killed to harvest or produce(vegetable roots, tubers, bulbs, and rhizomes, peanuts, sprouts, etc.) I also try my best not to harm bacteria. This leaves cereals(and other grains), fruits, beans/legumes (except for peanuts), and leaf and stem greens.
To clarify, the last sentence lists the things that I DO eat.
“The vegan line (between plants and animals) is more rational and more consistent.”
Not necessarily. The logic applied to most diet choices is heavily flawed. I choose to eat meat because I do not care that animals are slaughtered for their meat or used for their milk, etc. I can agree that the vegan line is a bit more consistent, but it is no more rational than my reason for not eating pets.
The issue is that many of us seem to want to justify every little thing we do when it’s just not possible. I cannot justify my omnivorous diet, but I don’t feel the need to. I eat meat because I like it and I don’t have a problem with killing animals to get it (I know that when I buy meat I contribute to slaughterhouses and whatnot, I understand that I am a part of the process and the blood is “on my hands” so to speak). This does not make me a barbarian.
The problem is people trying to force their views on others. I am not going to say that I am right and you are wrong, because it is a matter of opinion. You can think whatever you want and can live vegan or whatever. Don’t get angry when some people don’t take you seriously. I cannot find a way to justify a Vegan lifestyle that is compelling enough for me to impose upon myself what I think are unnecessary diet and lifestyle restrictions. Nor would I feel it necessary to impose those restrictions on my cat (but I won’t let her eat my birds).
If the death of thousands of insects during the shipping of pretty much any product bothers you, well I don’t know what to tell you. Not to mention the idea that the people involved in the cultivation and shipping might have used animal-based products in some way, or the idea that many of us would not be alive today if it weren’t for animal testing and research (just vaccines alone account for saving millions of lives). None of us would be what we are today if our ancestors had not began hunting. We probably would not have survived as a species if we did not use animals and animal based products. I personally find the Vegan lifestyle to be an insult to our very existence, but that is my opinion and I don’t claim to be right. I have no problem with people who choose to be Vegan, but please don’t try to tell me that your way is better and that I should agree with you. Neither should I expect you to see things my way and agree with me (and become barbarians, woo!, j/k).
If you follow a Jain-like diet/lifestyle, but you still practice good oral hygiene or even drink alcohol, well…
The point is that we all have our own reasons for whatever we do (or we don’t, I can think of many things that I do for no reason and I’m sure I’m not the only one). Another point is expressing our views. Free speech is a wonderful thing and it’s nice to see this website to help barbarian meat eaters like myself to better understand my Vegan counterparts.
I retract the previous statement of my finding the Vegan lifestyle to be an insult to our very existence. Hunting and the use of animals/animal based products may have played a large role in the evolution and survival of our species, but that does not necessarily mean that it is still completely necessary. I cannot say for sure what the future holds or what role the use of animals or animal based products will play, but I don’t think we’ll get very far in space exploration unless we go Vegan.
What if it was found out that plants and bacteria felt some kind of pain? Would it be any different from eating animals to eat plants? Would us vegans just be, being bias because animals have a face and look like us? I know plants and bacteria don’t have a brain, it’s healthier for us to eat a plant based diet, being vegan means less animals and plants are killed. But would we be bias if we looked at a butcher and though they was wrong for killing animals when plants and bacteria expereince pain?
I don’t think they do. But some people think plants and bacteria could feel pain? Would it be close to what animals feel? It is obvious plants want to survive I mean they have ways to heal after all… so obviously they don’t want to be dead? So I know being vegan means less plants and animals die.
My question is, is it wrong to judge someone for hurting a animal if hurting a plant is painful to the plant?
I draw the line at plants as I need to eat them to live. But my question is I guess? What is the difference between killing a animal and a plant if they both wish to live?
Should vegans really be fruitarians and just eat fruits? Could we just eat fruits and survive?
Stephen, a vegan diet causes fewer deaths – total (animal and plant) – than a diet that includes animal meat.