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	<title>Comments on: What&#8217;s Wrong With Milk And Eggs?</title>
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	<description>vegan theory, vegan activism, vegan video, vegan food and vegan resources for vegans, vegetarians, animal rights activists, animal liberationists, and abolitionists</description>
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		<title>By: Are oysters conscious?</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/whats-wrong-with-milk-and-eggs/comment-page-1/#comment-16730</link>
		<dc:creator>Are oysters conscious?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Dec 2011 10:20:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=3432#comment-16730</guid>
		<description>[...] Suzy Q Answered:Animals may not be directly killed in the process of making cheese,but cows will eventually get killed when they stop producing milk which is used to make cheese.At the end of their reproduction cycle mother cows get sent to slaughter and they are slaughtered mercilessly in the most barbaric ways you would not want to know of.These links will help you out:http://www.vegansoapbox.com/whats-wrong-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktXBhNWWIhttp://nutriliteforlife.blogspot.com/200 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Suzy Q Answered:Animals may not be directly killed in the process of making cheese,but cows will eventually get killed when they stop producing milk which is used to make cheese.At the end of their reproduction cycle mother cows get sent to slaughter and they are slaughtered mercilessly in the most barbaric ways you would not want to know of.These links will help you out:<a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/whats-wrong-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktXBhNWWIhttp://nutriliteforlife.blogspot.com/200" rel="nofollow">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/whats-wrong-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktXBhNWWIhttp://nutriliteforlife.blogspot.com/200</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eccentric Vegan</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/whats-wrong-with-milk-and-eggs/comment-page-1/#comment-15549</link>
		<dc:creator>Eccentric Vegan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2011 21:59:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=3432#comment-15549</guid>
		<description>Alesha - you&#039;re a VIP
see this: http://www.vegansoapbox.com/are-you-a-v-i-p/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alesha &#8211; you&#8217;re a VIP<br />
see this: <a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/are-you-a-v-i-p/" rel="nofollow">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/are-you-a-v-i-p/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Alesha</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/whats-wrong-with-milk-and-eggs/comment-page-1/#comment-15548</link>
		<dc:creator>Alesha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2011 16:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=3432#comment-15548</guid>
		<description>I do not eat eggs or any dairy product, I occasionaly eats lean meats fish and chicken. But when I do it is very small amounts and I will go for the organic free range product, not the over filled mass produced farms. The idea of more people understanding the cruelity behind the eggs and dairy they consume and helping them re think the way the society treats all animals is a good thing. Incouraging people to start off by cutting out either meat or the eggs andf dairy is a good thing. But which one should be first does not matter. Over all the more we as a society protect the animals and the earth the better it will be for all of us. Does anyone know what to call my eating style? No eggs or dairy, but the very occasional meat? I was told &quot;flexitarian&quot; But looking for a nicer term :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not eat eggs or any dairy product, I occasionaly eats lean meats fish and chicken. But when I do it is very small amounts and I will go for the organic free range product, not the over filled mass produced farms. The idea of more people understanding the cruelity behind the eggs and dairy they consume and helping them re think the way the society treats all animals is a good thing. Incouraging people to start off by cutting out either meat or the eggs andf dairy is a good thing. But which one should be first does not matter. Over all the more we as a society protect the animals and the earth the better it will be for all of us. Does anyone know what to call my eating style? No eggs or dairy, but the very occasional meat? I was told &#8220;flexitarian&#8221; But looking for a nicer term <img src='http://www.vegansoapbox.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Brownies as Ambassadors &#171; Going Vegan in a Non-vegan World</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/whats-wrong-with-milk-and-eggs/comment-page-1/#comment-15033</link>
		<dc:creator>Brownies as Ambassadors &#171; Going Vegan in a Non-vegan World</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jun 2011 03:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=3432#comment-15033</guid>
		<description>[...] the front of their shirts but nothing to offer meat eaters other than the truth about where the dairy and eggs  in non-vegan brownies come from…um, I’m not seeing a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the front of their shirts but nothing to offer meat eaters other than the truth about where the dairy and eggs  in non-vegan brownies come from…um, I’m not seeing a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Can I eat cage-free or free-range eggs?</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/whats-wrong-with-milk-and-eggs/comment-page-1/#comment-5547</link>
		<dc:creator>Can I eat cage-free or free-range eggs?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 15:26:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=3432#comment-5547</guid>
		<description>[...] What&#8217;s wrong with milk and eggs? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] What&#8217;s wrong with milk and eggs? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eccentric Vegan</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/whats-wrong-with-milk-and-eggs/comment-page-1/#comment-4643</link>
		<dc:creator>Eccentric Vegan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 23:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=3432#comment-4643</guid>
		<description>Primate, Sorry I didn&#039;t fully acknowledge your point earlier. You are 100% right that the focus is on the males and that&#039;s not fair or good. And you&#039;re right that recognizing how much the females suffer is not only important in abolishing sexism and speciesism, it also helps feminists understand veganism better and vegans understand feminism better. Thanks for making that point :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Primate, Sorry I didn&#8217;t fully acknowledge your point earlier. You are 100% right that the focus is on the males and that&#8217;s not fair or good. And you&#8217;re right that recognizing how much the females suffer is not only important in abolishing sexism and speciesism, it also helps feminists understand veganism better and vegans understand feminism better. Thanks for making that point <img src='http://www.vegansoapbox.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Eccentric Vegan</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/whats-wrong-with-milk-and-eggs/comment-page-1/#comment-4641</link>
		<dc:creator>Eccentric Vegan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=3432#comment-4641</guid>
		<description>I agree with you veganprimate, but I feel like these discussions put veganism into the narrow piggeonhole of contextual eating choices like fair trade or organic. Though extremely important and worthwhile, &quot;fair trade&quot; is simply a sort of boycott against items not labeled &quot;fair trade.&quot; It&#039;s not a philosophy.

Veganism, in my mind, is a philosophy based on the concept that it&#039;s unethical to use animals as mere objects, as slaves, as commodities. That extends well beyond factory farming and the atrocities therein. Veganism, in my mind, isn&#039;t simply a boycott of nonvegan items; it&#039;s a way of living that respects animals.

Moreover, I think there is good reason to focus on the death of males versus the suffering of females: death is easier to understand than torture. For example, even those who disagree understand the anti-death penalty arguments. There isn&#039;t any confusion over the principle issue: death. But when it comes to torture, there&#039;s a ton of debate and confusion. What is and what isn&#039;t torture becomes a matter of debate. But when you speak of death, there&#039;s no question. 

Again, my reasoning is simply that we ought to appeal to as many humans as possible in as simple terms as possible, just like above where I defended promoting vegetarianism over promoting egg-free, dairy-free meat-eating. But of course, do your own thing and promote veganism however you see fit :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you veganprimate, but I feel like these discussions put veganism into the narrow piggeonhole of contextual eating choices like fair trade or organic. Though extremely important and worthwhile, &#8220;fair trade&#8221; is simply a sort of boycott against items not labeled &#8220;fair trade.&#8221; It&#8217;s not a philosophy.</p>
<p>Veganism, in my mind, is a philosophy based on the concept that it&#8217;s unethical to use animals as mere objects, as slaves, as commodities. That extends well beyond factory farming and the atrocities therein. Veganism, in my mind, isn&#8217;t simply a boycott of nonvegan items; it&#8217;s a way of living that respects animals.</p>
<p>Moreover, I think there is good reason to focus on the death of males versus the suffering of females: death is easier to understand than torture. For example, even those who disagree understand the anti-death penalty arguments. There isn&#8217;t any confusion over the principle issue: death. But when it comes to torture, there&#8217;s a ton of debate and confusion. What is and what isn&#8217;t torture becomes a matter of debate. But when you speak of death, there&#8217;s no question. </p>
<p>Again, my reasoning is simply that we ought to appeal to as many humans as possible in as simple terms as possible, just like above where I defended promoting vegetarianism over promoting egg-free, dairy-free meat-eating. But of course, do your own thing and promote veganism however you see fit <img src='http://www.vegansoapbox.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: veganprimate</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/whats-wrong-with-milk-and-eggs/comment-page-1/#comment-4640</link>
		<dc:creator>veganprimate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:21:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=3432#comment-4640</guid>
		<description>Good point.  It is easier to understand the connection between eating an animal and the death of that animal.  Especially for children.  I can see that.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;~ Recent blog post: &lt;a href=&quot;http://veganprimate.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/no-poo-update/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;No ‘poo (and soap, and deodorant) update&lt;/a&gt; ~&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point.  It is easier to understand the connection between eating an animal and the death of that animal.  Especially for children.  I can see that.</p>
<p><abbr><em>~ Recent blog post: <a href="http://veganprimate.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/no-poo-update/" rel="nofollow">No ‘poo (and soap, and deodorant) update</a> ~</em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: veganprimate</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/whats-wrong-with-milk-and-eggs/comment-page-1/#comment-4639</link>
		<dc:creator>veganprimate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=3432#comment-4639</guid>
		<description>Also, I want to add that as a feminist, I find it interesting that when the dairy and egg industry crimes against animals are talked about, the focus is on the MALE chicks and MALE calves.  Yes, it&#039;s atrocious.  Yes, it&#039;s a cruel waste of life, but male chicks are killed within a day or two of being hatched.  And male calves are either killed in a few days or a few weeks for veal.  But dairy cows suffer for a few YEARS.  The females are repeatedly raped and their maternal bond is disrespected.  That, to me, is what needs to be focused on.  If our sexist society doesn&#039;t care how female animals suffer, that is too bad, but we shouldn&#039;t appease them by focusing on the relatively swift death of the males.  Oh, the poor male chicks who are alive for mere hours.  What about the laying hens who have chicken sh-t fall on their heads from above?  What if it gets in their eyes?  All that ammonia stench burning their lungs?  They can&#039;t even lift a wing.  Just the thought of being trapped and not able to move makes me go nuts, and that&#039;s just thinking about it.  That&#039;s not even happening to me. Not to mention their beaks getting cut off.  That is evil.  Oh, but the poor cute little male chicks.  Meh.

I&#039;m not trying to take you to task, Elaine.  I read this sh-t all the time.  It&#039;s common to focus on the plight of the male animals to get people to sympathize.  I personally think the plight of the female animals is enough to elicit sympathy.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;~ Recent blog post: &lt;a href=&quot;http://veganprimate.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/no-poo-update/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;No ‘poo (and soap, and deodorant) update&lt;/a&gt; ~&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, I want to add that as a feminist, I find it interesting that when the dairy and egg industry crimes against animals are talked about, the focus is on the MALE chicks and MALE calves.  Yes, it&#8217;s atrocious.  Yes, it&#8217;s a cruel waste of life, but male chicks are killed within a day or two of being hatched.  And male calves are either killed in a few days or a few weeks for veal.  But dairy cows suffer for a few YEARS.  The females are repeatedly raped and their maternal bond is disrespected.  That, to me, is what needs to be focused on.  If our sexist society doesn&#8217;t care how female animals suffer, that is too bad, but we shouldn&#8217;t appease them by focusing on the relatively swift death of the males.  Oh, the poor male chicks who are alive for mere hours.  What about the laying hens who have chicken sh-t fall on their heads from above?  What if it gets in their eyes?  All that ammonia stench burning their lungs?  They can&#8217;t even lift a wing.  Just the thought of being trapped and not able to move makes me go nuts, and that&#8217;s just thinking about it.  That&#8217;s not even happening to me. Not to mention their beaks getting cut off.  That is evil.  Oh, but the poor cute little male chicks.  Meh.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not trying to take you to task, Elaine.  I read this sh-t all the time.  It&#8217;s common to focus on the plight of the male animals to get people to sympathize.  I personally think the plight of the female animals is enough to elicit sympathy.</p>
<p><abbr><em>~ Recent blog post: <a href="http://veganprimate.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/no-poo-update/" rel="nofollow">No ‘poo (and soap, and deodorant) update</a> ~</em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Eccentric Vegan</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/whats-wrong-with-milk-and-eggs/comment-page-1/#comment-4638</link>
		<dc:creator>Eccentric Vegan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=3432#comment-4638</guid>
		<description>I agree with you that in the context of today&#039;s factory farming, dairy cows and egg-laying hens suffer just as much or more than animals raised purely for meat. However, the suffering-based rationale for veganism is slightly more confusing and difficult to explain than the suffering-based rational for vegetarianism. 

That is, children understand the vegetarian argument VERY easily. They don&#039;t understand the vegan argument as easily. Children are not a measure of whether the argument is good or not, but they &lt;em&gt;are&lt;/em&gt; a good measure of how persuasive the argument is to the general population. (They say you should write at a sixth grade level if you want to be understood by the average person. And this is why videos of animal suffering are more persuasive than written words.)

I think for most people who care about animals, the idea of eating dead animal flesh is incongruous with their concern for animals. Advocating a dairy-free and egg-free diet that still includes animal flesh just feels wrong. 

On an intellectual and emotional level, the relationship between meat-eating and suffering is so much stronger than the relationship between dairy or eggs and suffering. It doesn&#039;t require any special knowledge or experience to understand vegetarianism. Animal rights, in the most basic sense of right to life, are self-evident. 

Even veganism is easy to understand on a purely intellectual or emotional level. But dairy-free, egg-free meat-eating is more complicated. 

If someone had suggested that I continue eating animal flesh but not dairy or eggs, I would have ignored them and thought they were crazy. It was simple: I care about animals so I don&#039;t eat them. Later, that became: I care about animals so I don&#039;t use them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you that in the context of today&#8217;s factory farming, dairy cows and egg-laying hens suffer just as much or more than animals raised purely for meat. However, the suffering-based rationale for veganism is slightly more confusing and difficult to explain than the suffering-based rational for vegetarianism. </p>
<p>That is, children understand the vegetarian argument VERY easily. They don&#8217;t understand the vegan argument as easily. Children are not a measure of whether the argument is good or not, but they <em>are</em> a good measure of how persuasive the argument is to the general population. (They say you should write at a sixth grade level if you want to be understood by the average person. And this is why videos of animal suffering are more persuasive than written words.)</p>
<p>I think for most people who care about animals, the idea of eating dead animal flesh is incongruous with their concern for animals. Advocating a dairy-free and egg-free diet that still includes animal flesh just feels wrong. </p>
<p>On an intellectual and emotional level, the relationship between meat-eating and suffering is so much stronger than the relationship between dairy or eggs and suffering. It doesn&#8217;t require any special knowledge or experience to understand vegetarianism. Animal rights, in the most basic sense of right to life, are self-evident. </p>
<p>Even veganism is easy to understand on a purely intellectual or emotional level. But dairy-free, egg-free meat-eating is more complicated. </p>
<p>If someone had suggested that I continue eating animal flesh but not dairy or eggs, I would have ignored them and thought they were crazy. It was simple: I care about animals so I don&#8217;t eat them. Later, that became: I care about animals so I don&#8217;t use them.</p>
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