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	<title>Vegan Soapbox &#187; Gary Steiner</title>
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	<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com</link>
	<description>vegan theory, vegan activism, vegan video, vegan food and vegan resources for vegans, vegetarians, animal rights activists, animal liberationists, and abolitionists</description>
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		<title>Logical Persuasion</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/logical-persuasion/</link>
		<comments>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/logical-persuasion/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:32:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Eccentric Vegan</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Vegan Et Cetera]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[argumentation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[bingo]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[college]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[debate]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[defensive omnivore bingo]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[effectiveness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[efficacy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Gary Francione]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Gary Steiner]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[logic]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[philosophy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[professor]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[university]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[vegan education]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[vegan outreach]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=6400</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It doesn't matter that there's a logical fallacy in nonvegans' rationalizations for eating animals if pointing out the argumentative mistake won't effectively convince people to go vegan.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just listened to the latest <a href="http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/commentary-discussion-with-professor-gary-steiner/">podcast </a>from <a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/criticism-is-not-enough/">Gary Francione</a> wherein he interviews<a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/its-ok-to-care-about-animals/"> Gary Steiner</a>. I shouldn&#8217;t be surprised, but Steiner didn&#8217;t expect hostile <a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/backlash/">reactions from his NY Times piece</a>. It&#8217;s clear he&#8217;s VERY new to vegan outreach and activism. Both Garys have some good ideas and some great intentions, but both seem completely out of touch with the mainstream.</p>
<p>Consider:</p>
<p><img title="defensiveomnibingo" src="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/defensiveomnibingo.jpg" alt="defensiveomnibingo" width="509" height="604" /></p>
<p>What&#8217;s funny is that the Garys hear these excuses and probably think, &#8220;I can explain the fallacy and logically persuade this person to see the error in their ways. I&#8217;m a professor afterall and that&#8217;s what I do!&#8221;</p>
<p>But I think anyone who has been involved in vegan education for any significant amount of time realizes that it doesn&#8217;t matter that there&#8217;s a logical fallacy if pointing out the argumentative mistake won&#8217;t effectively convince people to go vegan.<strong> The trick in vegan education is to get people to go vegan, not to create the most complete and coherent &#8211; yet unconvincing &#8211; argument for veganism. </strong>If you can do both, go for it. But if/when you must choose, pick efficacy over logical validity.</p>
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		<slash:comments>2</slash:comments>
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		<item>
		<title>Backlash</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/backlash/</link>
		<comments>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/backlash/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Eccentric Vegan</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Vegan Et Cetera]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[backlash]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[excuses]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Gary Steiner]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[justifications]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[letters to the editor]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[nonvegan]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ny times]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[op/ed]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[veg]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Vegan]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=6338</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I read the letters to the editor in response to Gary Steiner's vegan op/ed. They were full of empty excuses from nonvegans trying to justify eating animals.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read the <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/opinion/l24vegan.html?_r=1&amp;pagewanted=all">letters </a>to the editor in response to <a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/fifty-million-slaughtered-turkeys-and-football/">Gary Steiner&#8217;s</a> <a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/its-ok-to-care-about-animals/">vegan op/ed</a>. They were full of empty excuses from nonvegans trying to justify eating animals. But there was one good one. It said:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Go vegan, go vegetarian, go humane or just eat less meat. It’s all good advice from the point of view of doing better by animals.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Obviously, I&#8217;d like to see the world go vegan tomorrow. But I know that won&#8217;t happen. And I also know that less harm is better than more harm. So if you&#8217;re going to cause harm to animals, the environment, and your health, do less harm. Eat fewer animal products. Cut back on meat!</p>
<p>So, that letter made sense. But a whole lot of the other letters were full of nonsense. For example:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;When we plant and harvest crops that vegans would find acceptable to eat, many animals are killed and their habitats are destroyed.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>The vegan solution is demonstrated by Mark Middleton&#8217;s fantastic <a href="http://www.animalvisuals.org/data/1mc/">graph</a>:<br />
<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" width="420" height="400" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0"><param name="src" value="http://www.animalvisuals.org/m/data/1mc/1mc.swf" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="400" src="http://www.animalvisuals.org/m/data/1mc/1mc.swf"></embed></object><br />
It&#8217;s simple: vegans kill far fewer animals than nonvegans. FAR fewer.</p>
<p>Being vegan isn&#8217;t about being perfect. It&#8217;s about reducing or eliminating the ways in which humans unnecessarily force animals to live, breed, and die. It&#8217;s about taking animals&#8217; interests into consideration and acting responsibly and compassionately.</p>
<p>Another wacky letter snippet:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;vegans must tread a very narrow line to avoid all sorts of deficiency diseases&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Untrue. Vegans do not have to work very hard at all to eat healthily. The <a href="http://www.mypyramid.gov/tips_resources/vegetarian_diets.html">USDA even has some simple guidelines</a>, for example: &#8220;Sources of protein for vegetarians include beans, nuts, nut butters, peas, and soy products (tofu, tempeh, veggie burgers)&#8221; and &#8220;Iron sources for vegetarians include iron-fortified breakfast cereals, spinach, kidney beans, black-eyed peas, lentils, turnip greens, molasses, whole wheat breads, peas, and some dried fruits (dried apricots, prunes, raisins).&#8221;</p>
<p>To eat healthily, I simply eat a wide variety of colorful plant-based foods, including some fortified foods.</p>
<p>The old &#8216;meat is part of the food chain&#8217; argument made its way into the letters section:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Wolves eat sheep. Tuna eat mackerel. We are animals ourselves — and are no more (or less) than the animals we consume, or than the predators that would otherwise consume them.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Wolves hunt and kill other animals, but they don&#8217;t factory farm. Most of the time when wolves hunt, they don&#8217;t even successfully kill. They spend a lot of time stalking and chasing, less time killing and eating. The wolf has to work hard for a meal of meat. But humans, we just go to the supermarket or the restaurant and pick up a package of dead animal that&#8217;s been bred and killed for us. That&#8217;s not the &#8216;food chain.&#8217;</p>
<p>And finally, one pessimistic, apathetic letter included comments about how suffering is inevitable and death is a part of life and so on in an attempt to distance consumption choices from responsibility. But then the writer admitted the truth that they feel overwhelmed by the enormous problem of factory farming and animal commodification:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Were I also to internalize the pain experienced by animals, I’d simply shut down. Whose lot could that possibly help?&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>My response it that there&#8217;s no need to internalize the pain experienced by animals. The need is to do something about it. To take a stand and make a difference. It&#8217;s really not all that difficult to start eating more vegan meals and fewer nonvegan meals. Transitioning gets easier every day. Make it even easier with <a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/recipes/">vegan recipes</a> and <a href="http://vegan.meetup.com/">vegan meetups</a>.</p>
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		</item>
		<item>
		<title>It&#8217;s OK To Care About Animals</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/its-ok-to-care-about-animals/</link>
		<comments>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/its-ok-to-care-about-animals/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Eccentric Vegan</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Vegan Theory]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[animal rights]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[bird]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bob Torres]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ethics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Gary Francione]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Gary Steiner]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[instinct]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mainstream vegan]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[moral intuition]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[morality]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[oppression]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[self evident]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[thanksgiving]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Theory]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[turkey]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[veg]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=6287</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Too many people are uncomfortable trusting their moral intuitions regarding animals. Too many people resist their gut reactions. Too many people muffle their animal-friendly instincts.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The New York Times finally published an article that was unequivocally vegan. &#8220;<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/opinion/22steiner.html?adxnnlx=1258905883-SD5Jv76upJ3JM5/cCoA4%20Q&amp;pagewanted=all">Animal, Vegetable, Miserable</a>&#8221; by Gary Steiner makes a strong ethical case for veganism. For example, he wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;The fact that my cat can’t appreciate Schubert’s late symphonies and can’t perform syllogistic logic does not mean that I am entitled to use him as an organic toy, as if I were somehow not only morally superior to him but virtually entitled to treat him as a commodity with minuscule market value.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>The professor of philosophy at Bucknell University is the author of “<em>Animals and the Moral Community: Mental Life, Moral Status and Kinship.</em>” His <a href="http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/gsteiner/">website </a>links to two other vegan professors: Gary Francione (law) and Bob Torres (sociology).</p>
<p>Certainly, these professors and their books have helped the animal movement by providing well-reasoned and well-articulated discussions of animal rights theory in the language and format that appeals to a number of influential people.</p>
<p>I strongly believe that <a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/8-disturbing-animal-videos/">animal rights are self-evident</a>, that cages and fences are obviously oppressive, and that animals&#8217; own voices and actions of resistance are plentiful and apparent, but I understand that many people cannot or will not adopt or promote an animal rights perspective without an intellectual hook. Too many people are uncomfortable trusting their moral intuitions regarding animals. Too many people resist their gut reactions. Too many people muffle their animal-friendly instincts. These <strong>people need to hear a respected, educated, authoritative <em>man </em>tell them it&#8217;s OK to care about animals.</strong> Gary Steiner&#8217;s article does that. It provides an intellectual argument for animal rights based on concepts of justice and fairness.</p>
<p>If you haven&#8217;t read it, <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/opinion/22steiner.html?adxnnlx=1258905883-SD5Jv76upJ3JM5/cCoA4%20Q&amp;pagewanted=all">go read it now &gt;&gt;</a></p>
<p>However, I have three criticisms of Steiner&#8217;s NY Times article:</p>
<p>1. He wrote, &#8220;<em>The number of vegans I know personally is &#8230; five. And I have been a vegan for almost 15 years, having been a vegetarian for almost 15 before that.</em>&#8221;</p>
<p>I find that astounding. Someone who only knows five or fewer vegans is someone who is probably a little out-of-touch with the vegan mainstream. Indeed, he calls himself &#8220;a strict vegan,&#8221; meaning he strives for personal purity and abstinence of all animal products &#8211; including things like Band-Aids. The actual definition of veganism as defined by those who coined the term, <a href="http://www.vegansociety.com/hubpage.aspx?id=495">The Vegan Society</a>, is more worried about the vegan basics (obvious animal flesh, skin, and secretions):</p>
<blockquote><p>Question: What is a vegan?<br />
Answer: A vegan is someone who tries to live without exploiting animals, for the benefit of animals, people and the planet. Vegans eat a plant-based diet, with nothing coming from animals &#8211; no meat, milk, eggs or honey, for example. A vegan lifestyle also avoids leather, wool, silk and other animal products for clothing or any other purpose.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>Question: How did the word vegan come about?<br />
Answer: It is the beginning and end of the word, &#8216;vegetarian&#8217;. It was coined in the UK by Donald Watson in 1944 when The Vegan Society was founded. It symbolises that veganism is the logical conclusion of the vegetarian journey to good health without the suffering or death of any animal.</p></blockquote>
<p><strong>The mainstream vegan abstains from animal products like meat, milk, eggs, leather, and fur. But there&#8217;s a lot of disagreement over things like honey, egg-derived vaccines, and other lesser-known or lesser-exploitative animal uses. </strong>Usually, there is absolute agreement in the desire for an animal-friendly and non-oppressive future. The disagreement isn&#8217;t generally in principles, rather the disagreement stems from the fact that 100% vegan purity isn&#8217;t possible in a nonvegan world.</p>
<p>To be a <a href="http://www.postpunkkitchen.com/forum/index.php">mainstream vegan</a> is not nearly as difficult as Steiner makes it out to be. The essence of veganism is the intention and habit of avoiding animal use as much as practical and possible. Veganism isn&#8217;t as much about the details as it is about the overall picture. <strong>The billions of animals tortured and killed every year in animal agriculture are the result of a culture that ignores animals&#8217; screams for mercy and pleas for freedom in favor of the taste of flesh, eggs, or milk and the fashion of fur or leather. </strong>The millions of animals tortured and killed every year in animal research are the result of a culture that prefers tradition and habit over good science. The billions of suffering beings are not the result of the use of a few Band-Aids (though if you can, why not use <a href="http://www.veganessentials.com/catalog/eco-guard-vegan-band-aids.htm">vegan bandages?</a>).</p>
<p>2. Steiner wrote, &#8220;<em>Many people soothe their consciences by purchasing only free-range fowl and eggs, blissfully ignorant that &#8216;free range&#8217; has very little if any practical significance.</em>&#8221; For someone like Gary Steiner who is a prominent enough vegan to get an article published in the New York Times, yet only has five vegan friends, I have to wonder what he means by the word &#8220;many.&#8221; How accurate is he when he worries about the effects of &#8220;humane&#8221; labels?</p>
<p>Indeed, labels lie and there is a &#8220;<a href="http://www.humanemyth.org/">humane myth</a>,&#8221; but in my experience, most people who think about eating &#8220;humane&#8221; meat either a) realize the humane myth eventually and go vegan or b) they lie. The latter group says &#8220;I only eat humane meat,&#8221; but in reality they eat all kinds of meat, including the most common kind: cruel factory farmed meat.</p>
<p>(I don&#8217;t mean to say they are intentional liars, I mean that they lie to themselves about the reality of animal product production. They are the kind of people who admit, &#8220;I like to think the animals die peacefully,&#8221; halfway knowing it&#8217;s just something they <em>like to think</em>, not something that actually happens. If you have any doubts, know now that <em>every animal resists slaughter</em>.)</p>
<p>The majority of people buy factory farmed animal products without a second thought at all.<strong> The majority of this year&#8217;s Thanksgiving turkeys will have lived and died in tremendous pain.</strong></p>
<p>3. Steiner wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;How can intelligent people who purport to be deeply concerned with animal welfare and respectful of life turn a blind eye to such practices? And how can people continue to eat meat when they become aware that nearly 53 billion land animals are slaughtered every year for human consumption? The simple answer is that most people just don’t care about the lives or fortunes of animals.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>People may or may not care. I&#8217;d like to see the evidence of this &#8220;simple answer&#8221; because it is simple, too simple. <strong>I believe people do care. I believe the reason animal agriculture isn&#8217;t more transparent is that they <em>know </em>that people care. </strong>Animal agriculture knows that people will stop eating animals when they learn the truth. So animal agriculture does their best to mask the truth and hide reality.</p>
<p>One of the luxuries of blogging (rather than writing op/eds for large newspapers) is that I can embed video. Here, see if you care:<br />
<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" width="425" height="344" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3KXZu65HpUA&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3KXZu65HpUA&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object></p>
<p><object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" width="425" height="344" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/cGJryC4XIdo&amp;color1=0xb1b1b1&amp;color2=0xcfcfcf&amp;hl=en&amp;feature=player_embedded&amp;fs=1" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cGJryC4XIdo&amp;color1=0xb1b1b1&amp;color2=0xcfcfcf&amp;hl=en&amp;feature=player_embedded&amp;fs=1" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object></p>
<p><object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" width="560" height="340" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rNikkqitEbU&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="340" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rNikkqitEbU&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object></p>
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		<item>
		<title>Fifty Million Slaughtered Turkeys. And Football.</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/fifty-million-slaughtered-turkeys-and-football/</link>
		<comments>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/fifty-million-slaughtered-turkeys-and-football/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 16:26:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Plump Vegan</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Vegan News]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Vegan Theory]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[animal vegetable mineral]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Gary Steiner]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[New York Times]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[thanksgiving]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[turkeys]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[veg]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Vegan]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=6282</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Uses of animals are so institutionalized, so normalized, in our society that it is difficult to find the critical distance needed to see them as the horrors that they are: so many forms of subjection, servitude and — in the case of killing animals for human consumption and other purposes — outright murder.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In anticipation of the day of fifty million slaughtered turkeys, the New York Times has printed a Thanksgiving op-ed by <a href="http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/gsteiner/">Gary Steiner</a> that <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/opinion/22steiner.html">makes the unapologetic case for veganism</a>.</p>
<blockquote><p>[U]ses of animals are so institutionalized, so normalized, in our society that it is difficult to find the critical distance needed to see them as the horrors that they are: so many forms of subjection, servitude and — in the case of killing animals for human consumption and other purposes — outright murder.</p></blockquote>
<p>and</p>
<blockquote><p>We have been trained by a history of thinking of which we are scarcely aware to view non-human animals as resources we are entitled to employ in whatever ways we see fit in order to satisfy our needs and desires. Yes, there are animal welfare laws. But these laws have been formulated by, and are enforced by, people who proceed from the proposition that animals are fundamentally inferior to human beings. At best, these laws make living conditions for animals marginally better than they would be otherwise — right up to the point when we send them to the slaughterhouse.</p>
<p>Think about that when you’re picking out your free-range turkey, which has absolutely nothing to be thankful for on Thanksgiving. All it ever had was a short and miserable life, thanks to us intelligent, compassionate humans.</p></blockquote>
<p>What he said. And, uh, go vegan!</p>
<p>H/T to Mom.</p>
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