Stupid Things Omnivores Say: “You Should Be Nicer If You Want To Convince Me”
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Dear Omni Who Says Stupid Things,
You want me to be nicer? You want me to assure you that being vegan is “just a choice” and it’s really ok to eat meat as long as you think it tastes good? You want me to flash you a wink and a smile and pretend that your meat-eating lifestyle isn’t directly responsible for thousands of quiet atrocities every year? You want to tell me that, maybe – if I’m really super, duper nice and make sure never, ever to pierce your bubble of ignorance with any bloody reality or fetid truth – maybe then you’ll deign to listen to what I have to say and perhaps for a moment consider vegetarianism?
Well, guess what. I’m not trying to convince you. I don’t give a damn about you. I’m going to educate enough other people so that we have a society where unrepentant animal exploiters like you are shamed, ostracized, and reviled.
I hope you like being on the outside looking in.
I can’t help it. I still try to be nice. But, it is getting more and more difficult.
How do you encourage and advocate fro vegetarianism without coming across to opionated or “harsh”, because too many omni’s tend to think that. I can tolorate Omni’s who don’t agree with my lifestyle choices as long as they don’t ridicule or critisize it. What is your advice in family situations or livving in a house hold with someone who’ll eat what you are, but will the following day buy murdered animal courpse despite how you described what the animal experienced? It can become a pain, how ignorant they can get… my lacto ovo friend once argued, “Everyone in the world can’t all be V-E-G-A-N-S because we would run out of vegetables and where would the farm animals go? I don’t see anything wrong with organic dairy or eggs!” I almost exploded, and now she’s just thinks veganism is nutty. Any advice would be appriciated! Thanks!
~ Recent blog post: Pre and Post Valentunes Day ~
Every situation is different and each person warrants their own response, but when nonvegans say, “Stop that, you’re just alienating people. That’s not the way to be convincing,” nonvegans CANNOT be trusted. If nonvegans knew what would convince them to go vegan, they’d be vegan.
Nonvegans who whine and complain about how we should convince them to go vegan are akin to racists who whine about the NAACP, sexists who wine about The Feminist Majority, and heterosexists who wine about the Equal Rights Campaign.
Just as we should not coddle and hand-hold racists, sexists, heterosexists or any other type of person who has a severely harmful worldview, we should not coddle nonvegans who don’t express a sincere interest in going vegan.
Granted, we must deal with nonvegans in our everyday lives. But we must choose strategies for dealing with them that don’t endanger ourselves and our freedoms of expression. And we must choose strategies that do not explicitly or implicitly condone anti-animal sentiments.
Some vegans have written about this topic, for example, Carol J. Adams has written Living Among Meat Eaters and Claire Askew Generation V: The Complete Guide to Going, Being, and Staying Vegan as a Teenager which is said to help vegan teens deal with nonvegan parents.
On the note of convincing nonvegans to go vegan, I’ve begun a blog compiling data and case studies: http://sellingcompassion.blogspot.com/
My hope is to determine THE best methods of persuasion, while recognizing, as Plump does above, that some nonvegans simply will not be persuaded.
PS
Bill, I don’t think Plump is advocating being mean, he’s advocating truth. He’s basically saying ‘don’t buy into the skewed nonvegan biases that don’t value animals’ lives. Be honest with nonvegans even if it might hurt their feelings.’
What nonvegans are doing is wrong and they need to know it. They are destroying animals’ lives, they are destroying the environment, they are becoming a burden on our healthcare systems, they are condoning human rights violations… I could go on.
Lacy asked “How do you encourage and advocate fro vegetarianism without coming across to opinionated or “harsh”,”
The answer is: it’s virtually impossible. Someone, somewhere will criticize what you have to say and how you say it. Don’t let that silence you. Consider if their criticism is valid and if so, adjust, but if not, IGNORE the obstinate nonvegans.
We will outlive them, outlast them, and outsmart them. If they don’t join us, they’ll be left in our dust. We ARE the future.
Thanks so much for the nice, long responce! You’re right, we MUST inform them with the truth… I just hate to start an arguement, but that’s what must occur when they choose to munch on slaughtered courpses or rotting flesh and call it “meat, protien.” or dis our beliefes. Ugh, I HATE when they argue back, I wish I could carry around a “certified true” book of “UNBELIEVEABLE FACTS AN OMNI WOULD NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND ABOUT HOW ANIMAL AGRICULTURE AFFECTS HUMANS, ANIMALS AND THE EARTH” Maybe I’ll create this one day in the future. I also love how you said, “we will out live, out last and out smart them. if they don’t join us they’ll be left in our dust. we ARE the future!” So true, nice positive outlook on veganism, I love your blog!
“We will outlive them, outlast them, and outsmart them. If they don’t join us, they’ll be left in our dust. We ARE the future.”
Right on.
Thanks everyone for weighing in.
In my experience, people do not respond to anger, no matter how “right” you are about your position.
I have been touring for six months and talking with many omnivores. The problem is not that we are not angry enough, the problem is that, in our society, it is too easy for people to “forget” that there is a connection between suffering and what they are eating.
And I mean the type of forgetting that you, yourself have likely engaged in. Are your shoes, clothing, and coffee free of sweatshops? Do you drive a car? I can go on and on, and my point is not that any of us are pure, but that it is human nature to suspend disbelief…no matter how obvious it seems to us that something is connected.
Our job as compassionate activists is to “remind” society in a way that will be heard and not dismissed as angry or radical. After all, what matters is how many people we can encourage to eat less or no animal products, and therefore help animals — not if we’ve won an argument.
It is devastating, to say the least, to live day to day with the knowledge that so many animals are suffering needlessly. The best thing we can do is be strategic and really understand the barriers people face in reducing or eliminating animal products.
Calling omnivores ’stupid’ is not going to make them consider our position. It will just give them more reason to dismiss us.
Plus, I said some ’stupid’ things too before I knew more on the topic … not just veganism, lots of -isms. It’s like any war, I suppose…if someone bombs me, and I bomb them back, the bombing is likely to continue until some silly soul says “wait a minute, let’s really talk about this…”
Enough of my rambling. Here is one o’ my favorite articles on the topic…
http://www.veganoutreach.org/advocacy/
Woot!
Eleni
Eleni,
You may be a compassionate activist, but I’m not. I don’t give a flip whether I’m “dismissed” as angry or radical.
It takes many ingredients to bake a vegan cake. You need the sugar, and you need the vinegar. Even though they are in some ways opposites, they both work together to make the final product.
I dismiss out of hand anyone who says that “angry” activism is counter-productive. “Angry” activism sticks in people’s minds. It gets to them. Does it convert them immediately? No. But it doesn’t need to… it plants the seed. It ramps up the emotions. It knocks them out of the apathetic stupor our culture lulls them in that says exploiting animals is ok… it’s all ok… no need to think twice about it.
You show me a person made angry or indignant by a vegan activist, and then you show me an apathetic person, and you ask me which one is more likely to go vegan at some point, I’ll pick the angry person every time. People are driven to act by emotions, and drawing people out of their intellectual torpor is NOT a bad thing even if it raises their hackles.
And yes, we’ve all been stupid. We’re all human. I’m stupid all the time. And I think other people should be told in no uncertain terms when they are being stupid. At least when it comes down to a life-or-death issue like this one.
With all due respect Eleni, “touring” may not be the best way to witness actual change of people’s perceptions. Most people do not go vegan overnight and the few conversations you may have with them over the course of one or two days or months will not be a good reflection of their actual thought process.
Let me give you an example from my own life:
My husband, sister, nephew, and I were in Central Park. We saw the horse-drawn carriages. My husband and I mentioned that we thought they were cruel and we wanted them banned. My sister responded, “Enough! You guys talk about animal rights too much! You’re ruining our walk.”
A year later she wanted to see Blinders and now she wants the carriages banned, too.
You say, “Calling omnivores ’stupid’ is not going to make them consider our position. It will just give them more reason to dismiss us.”
Veganism is not “our position.” We have no claim over it and we are not “the voice of the voiceless” as many AR people are apt to claim. Veganism is a moral truth that can be discovered purely by introspection and experience with animals. A human need not be exposed to other vegan humans in order to determine that veganism is a strong moral position. Animal rights are SELF EVIDENT.
Veganism is NOT like buying fair trade or organic. It doesn’t require the level of education or experience that those kinds of consumption choices require. Veganism is different in that it’s based on self evident moral rights of animals. This is why children as young as five or six choose to go vegetarian of their own accord.
Yes, I think it makes sense to be understanding and help people overcome their barriers to veganism, but remember that the goal posts keep changing. When I was younger, the current myths about veganism being “too expensive” or “relying on soy” didn’t exist. So long as we keep playing defensive instead of offensive, we’ll never get ahead.
In my opinion, veganism is not about us, it’s about helping animals. Too many people forget that. I will be the first to agree that we should not coddle meat eaters and try to make them feel better about eating meat. We should always be honest with them. If someone asks me if I think you can be a “good” person and still eat meat I always tell them no, I don’t think you can support the needless suffering of other beings and still be considered a “good” person. But since everyone can easily be vegan, being a “good” person is not beyond their reach.
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt to begin with by allowing that they may be ignorant (not stupid). I was certainly ignorant until someone told me what was going on. But as soon as I learned about factory farming and that people can thrive on a vegan diet I knew I had to make changes in my life. Now I am vegan.
However, there are some people who continue to eat meat and support animal exploitation despite knowing as much as you and I know about how animals are being made to needlessly suffer. These people are scum and don’t deserve our consideration. But again, veganism isn’t about us. It is about animals and what is in their best interests. No matter how satisfying it may be to be mean to people who unapologetically eat meat, no matter how right we are in ridiculing these people, those reactions may not always be in the best interest of animals.
If we want to have the greatest impact possible, convince the most people to go vegan, and save the most animals possible we need to think strategically about the most effective ways to go about promoting veganism. We need to learn how to effectively talk with people without turning them off. Being angry and mean does turn people off. Even if your anger is justified, it could be hurting animals.
Remember, the goal is to minimize the suffering we cause and to be the most effective at convincing others to do the same. If just one of person follows your example and decides to go vegan, you can save hundreds of animals! And if just one person might have become a vegan but decides not to because of your example, the reverse is true. It hurts animals. That’s anti-vegan, if being vegan is about helping animals.
Being sarcastic or mean in response to someone else’s rude comments might make you feel better, but it isn’t an effective way to promote veganism. It certainly won’t help you persuade the person you are being rude to and it may alienate others who are listening to the conversation. You may be absolutely right and the person you are talking to may deserve your anger, but the animals deserve your restraint. The animals need you to think about the best way to get others to go vegan. By being kind and respectful, you are taking the high road and increasing the chances that your message of compassion will be taken seriously. It can’t hurt, and it can sometimes even turn those mean and nasty people around.
Matt wrote: “Even if your anger is justified, it could be hurting animals.”
That’s simply not true. Do not blame vegans for nonvegans inaction. It’s unfair and unjustified.
The actual, direct result of telling vegans “not to be mean” is that vegans silence themselves. Instead of telling people HOW to promote veganism, we should simply tell people TO promote veganism and let them do it in their own ways. Everyone has their own skill set and perspective. We need MORE activists, not necessarily more “joyous and humble” activists, particularly when there’s no actual proof that “joyous and humble” works best.
Matt,
First, no one is talking about being “mean.” Being blunt and truthful is not being “mean,” though some people will have you believe that it is. Second, being angry certainly turns some people off. But it also turns some people on. It’s different strokes for different folks… different messages for different audiences… what have you. For instance, my first exposure to veganism was definitely of the “angry” sort, and now I’m vegan. Meat is murder. Dairy is rape. You’re a jerk if you eat meat. I needed to hear it put that way to really wake me up.
Bottom line is that vegans haven’t done any serious studies into marketing and human behavior. No one actually knows which messages are more effective than which other messages. So when someone tells me, “Anger turns people off and hurts animals,” all I can think is, “Show me the evidence.” Because thus far I’ve seen none that supports that contention. And I have (admittedly anecdotal) evidence to the contrary.
If I had to guess (and yes, I’m basically guessing), I’d guess that a strategy that involves putting a variety of messages out there, some “compassionate” and some “angry,” is likely to be the most effective. It works like “good cop, bad cop.” Which happens to be exactly what happens when you get a variety of different people with different personalities all advocating for veganism. So, for that reason, I will never criticize as “ineffective” how someone chooses to advocate for veganism. I think everyone’s voice is a positive voice.
I think that this is basically nonsense logic, at least at the moment it is. The reason is that the vast majority of people are still APATHETIC about veganism. Say I have a message that, by your definition, is really horrible. Out of every 5 people who hear it, 1 becomes vegan and 4 decide they’ll never become vegan. Guess what, if I blast my message far and wide, I just made a ton of new vegans and reduced overall meat consumption by a lot! For the most part we’re not talking to people who are on the fence about going vegan. We’re talking to people for whom veganism is still barely on their radar screen. If any of these people end up going vegan, it’s a victory. They can’t get any worse.. they already eat tons of meat.
I think it’s pretty silly to argue that we’re “ruining” these people on veganism. How much damage can one person do? Really? Versus how much help they can do advocating for veganism.
Bottom line is that it’s going to take a lot more hard evidence than anyone seems to have on offer to convince me that every vegan should fall in line and be “kind and respectful” to omnis at all times.
This is a nice lively discussion! Yay! I love it!
I am one of the so-called “nice” ones as a rule. Not because I have decided it’s the only way to be but simply because that’s the way my personality works. However, I do have thoughts about this topic that suggest that nice isn’t all we need:
* Sometimes we need the good-cop-bad-cop play. The mean ones call the knowledgable omnivores stupid and then the nice ones come along and listen compassionately. Some people will respond to the mean ones and some to the nice. Some need to hear both. And those in between, including the honest ones who simply answer the questions directly.
* I believe we have a responsibility to learn for ourselves. Why is it the responsibility of vegans to convince non-vegans of the truth of their way of living? Why don’t the omnivores take the time to find out for themselves? If we can’t be bothered to learn why recycling is a good idea what does that say about us? If we can’t be bothered to find out how animals are raised and killed and what that process does to them, to us, and the environment, what does that say?
Respect goes both ways. All ways. I am a big believer in having a civil discussion when possible. I suspect that all of the folks having this discussion feel the same way, whether they go for the “honey” approach or the “honest”.
Plump Vegan,
You can be honest (and should be honest) without being disrespectful or mean.
You say: “First, no one is talking about being “mean.” Being blunt and truthful is not being “mean,” though some people will have you believe that it is.”
You also said: “You may be a compassionate activist, but I’m not. I don’t give a flip whether I’m “dismissed” as angry or radical… It takes many ingredients to bake a vegan cake. You need the sugar, and you need the vinegar.”
I took your statement above (especially the sugar vs. vinegar analogy) to mean you are advocating being mean.
You say: “vegans haven’t done any serious studies into marketing and human behavior. No one actually knows which messages are more effective than which other messages.”
First of all, yes they have. Secondly, let’s do a little experiment. Tell me which of these two following approaches do you think is more likely to influence you? Be honest.
1. I could say: “You stupid idiot. There has been tons of marketing analysis done on how to best influence other people. Why don’t you look into these things before you open your stupid mouth and talk about things you obviously don’t know anything about? Haven’t you ever heard the old saying that you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar? You jerk!”
2. Or, I could say: “I see where you are coming from and I agree that sometimes different styles of messaging are important. But, as a general rule, marketing analysts have established that being kind, respectful and likeable as a person is the best way to influence other people and to get them to listen to you and take what you are saying seriously.
For example:
http://www.westegg.com/unmaintained/carnegie/win-friends.html#three
1. The only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it.
2. Show respect for the other person’s opinions. Never say, “You’re wrong.”
3. If you are wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically.
4. Begin in a friendly way.
5. Get the other person saying “yes, yes” immediately.
6. Let the other person do a great deal of the talking.
7. Let the other person feel that the idea is his or hers.
8. Try honestly to see things from the other person’s point of view.
9. Be sympathetic with the other person’s ideas and desires.
10. Appeal to the nobler motives.
11. Dramatize your ideas.
12. Throw down a challenge.
Here are some more sites that reference being respectful to best influence people:
http://www.4hb.com/08iceinfuencepeople.html
http://www.1000ventures.com/business_guide/crosscuttings/influencing_people.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_win_friends
Don’t you agree that, as people who care about helping animals, vegans should try their best to influence other people to stop needlessly hurting animals?”
Now, seriously, which tactic do you think will influence more people? 1 or 2? Notice how honest I was in both cases?
You say: “I think it’s pretty silly to argue that we’re “ruining” these people on veganism. How much damage can one person do? Really?”
Um… you did witness the disaster that was Sarah Palin, didn’t you?
You say: “Bottom line is that it’s going to take a lot more hard evidence than anyone seems to have on offer to convince me that every vegan should fall in line and be “kind and respectful” to omnis at all times.”
If you want more links to the numerous marketing analysis’s that have been done showing kindness and respect influence people better than anger, just let me know. If you can find anything that supports being mean (or vinegary) to people as a better method to influence people, I’d love to see it.
Eccentric Vegan wrote: “Do not blame vegans for nonvegans inaction.” And then: “The actual, direct result of telling vegans “not to be mean” is that vegans silence themselves.”
I say: Don’t blame vegans, like me, who say we should be respectful to omnis, for other vegan’s silence!
Being respectful does not mean being dishonest. I am always honest with people. I also try to be respectful. I;m nowhere near perfect and sometimes get angry. But I’ve found a lot of supporting evidence for the idea that being kind and respectful are more influential than being mean and angry.
Convenient Vegan, you ask: “Why is it the responsibility of vegans to convince non-vegans of the truth of their way of living?”
It’s not. But if you really want to be effective at helping reduce or eliminate cruelty to animals, then it is a good idea to try to convince other people to stop being cruel to animals, right? I think most vegans want to end cruelty to animals. Well, we aren’t going to be able to do that unless we can get people to stop being cruel to animals.
Matt,
I emailed Vegan Outreach and asked them personally if they’d done any marketing research when developing their pamphlets. They said they’d done none. That’s not to say other vegans haven’t done any research or that we can’t apply marketing research done for other things to vegan education…
BUT veganism is fundamentally different from selling a product. It’s an entire paradigm shift. It only makes sense that it requires different strategies than selling widgets, particularly if the type of veganism promoted is anti-capitalism/ anti-consumption.
Plump answered honestly that he needed to hear about veganism in a manner that confronted him and felt mean: I think it was from a Propagandhi album.
I needed the support and comfort of a loving relationship along with actual experience to recognize how difficult or not difficult veganism is. I wanted to go vegan nearly 20 years before I did, but one year of difficult experiences with nonvegans made it feel like a terrible burden. I stayed lacto-ovo vegetarian instead.
Neither of us *needed* a respectful conversation. And neither of us would have dismissed veganism simply because someone was rude to us about it. That’s like dismissing NYC because a few cab drivers are rude – ridiculous!
Be honest:
Would you say it’s ineffective to guilt-trip a mother who doesn’t put her baby in a child seat? Would you advocate “Never say, ‘You’re wrong’” to someone who is beating their dog and claims “it’s the only way”? Do you think it makes sense to “win friends” if those ‘friends’ are white supremacists?
Clearly, the “How to Win Friends and Influence People” method isn’t applicable in all situations. That book is a sales book and should be regarded as such. It’s not a book about major social change.
I’m a bit dissapointed that Vegan Outreach hasn’t done any marketing analysis on this topic. They should. But other groups have, including PETA.
Bruce Friedrich, PETA’s current Vice President of Campaigns, wrote a great piece about this a few years back: http://www.goveg.com/effectiveAdvocacy.asp
I think he is right in saying that the marketing techniques used to effectively sell products can be used to effectively sell veganism.
Clearly, different situations call for different tactics. Clearly, there may be people like Plump Vegan who need to be smacked upside the head before they admit they are wrong. But we aren’t talking about the rare people and instances. We are talking about most people, and most instances.
Let me know what you think of Bruce’s Effecive Advocacy article.
You ask: “Would you say it’s ineffective to guilt-trip a mother who doesn’t put her baby in a child seat?”
It depends on if you are being mean or disrespectful or not. You can play on someone’s conscience without being disrespectful or mean. For example, you could say: “I think you should put your baby in a carseat. I know how much you love your baby. You wouldn’t want her to get hurt, would you?” I think that would work much better than saying: “You stupid B*!@$! Put your goddam baby in a carseat!”
You ask: “Would you advocate “Never say, ‘You’re wrong’” to someone who is beating their dog and claims “it’s the only way”?
You seem to be missing the point. In this case, you could say something like this: “I understand where you are soming from, but I’ve found that being gentle with dogs (or people) is a better way to influence their behavior. Here, let me show you.”
You ask: “Do you think it makes sense to “win friends” if those ‘friends’ are white supremacists?”
Yes, if making friends with them can help change their minds. Your friends are a lot more likely to agree with you than your enemies.
Eccentric Vegan, your question about how to respond to someone beating their dog is actually a good example of what I am trying to say. While it is perfectly understandable that witnessing someone beating their dog would make you angry and you would be justified in being mean and rude to that person, if your goal is to help the dog then perhaps reacting out of anger is not the best thing to do. By reacting out of anger and being mean to the dog beater you are likely to start a fight. The dog beater may become angry at you in self defence. Now, his or her anger is going to cloud his or her ability to reason and s/he is going to be much less likely to want to listen to what you are saying. Now, for that dog beater to admit that s/he was wrong would have to swallow his or her pride. That’s a hard thing to do.
However, if you check your anger and instead react with kindess and respect, you may be able to disarm the dog beater and get him or her to listen to what you have to say. By being respectful and courteous, you are more likely to win that person over. If you can win that person over, you can save the dog from being beaten in the future. And saving the dog from being beaten should be your goal.
Matt,
To some extent I think you and Eccentric and I are talking about different things. You cite PETA as a group whose director of campaigns supports the “kind” approach. But a large number of PETA campaigns I would definitely NOT characterize as “kind.” For instance, “I’d rather go naked than wear fur” is relatively kind. But “fur hag” is NOT kind.
PETA mixes their campaigns up with regards to tone. Some campaigns come on soft, but others come on hard and can/will elicit strong, negative emotions. Indeed, I think this diversity of campaign tones is a part of what’s made PETA such an effective marketing machine.
Indeed, even Vegan Outreach has a spectrum of “tones” so to speak. Compare “Compassionate Choices” with “Even If You Like Meat…” some people will connect with CC but not EIYLM and vice versa.
Finally, there’s a big difference between personal and impersonal “meanness.” Walking up to someone and saying, “You’re an idiot for hitting your dog!” is VERY different from running a print ad campaign that says, “People who hit their dogs are idiots.”
Plump Vegan, you say: “Finally, there’s a big difference between personal and impersonal “meanness.” Walking up to someone and saying, “You’re an idiot for hitting your dog!” is VERY different from running a print ad campaign that says, “People who hit their dogs are idiots.””
Yes, that is very true. People love to hate, but hate to be hated. So, if you can get a large number of people to hate a “fur hag” then that can be an effective marketing tactic. But on the individual level, which is what I believe we were talking about here, the respectful approach is going to be more effective.
I think you and I and Eccentric Vegan essentially agree with each other.
We don’t agree 100% but for now I’m just going to drop it.
It took someone to show me video footage of factory farming to finally make me aware of the harm I was doing by eating meat. After viewing the horrible scenes form “Meet your Meat”, I was forever changed. It’s was as though I was blind and now I can see. I still thought it was Okay to eat dairy, eggs, wear leather and wool etc., but through more information from many vegan sites…I soon realized that I was still contributing to the industry of pain, suffering and death for profit. I have known many vegans up to the point that I became one and their veganism did not encourage me because the vegans I knew did not want to hurt my feelings or infringe upon my right to eat meat. People need to know that it is wrong… the terrible things that go on just for the taste of dead flesh. I can’t understand how parents, (mine included) could say to a child “Oh,look at the cute little lamb”, and then teach the chid that it is acceptable to eat that precious little lamb. I tell people why I am a vegan, and even when they see footage of how our farm animals are raised and slaughtered, I get remarks like “well those are just dumb animals that
are put on earth for us to eat” or “that only happens once in a while”. I am in people’s faces about veganism every chance I get because people need to know that there are choices. If someone would have been in my face about the issue, I would have been a vegan long ago.