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	<title>Comments on: Should Vegans Soften Our Tone?</title>
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	<description>vegan theory, vegan activism, vegan video, vegan food and vegan resources for vegans, vegetarians, animal rights activists, animal liberationists, and abolitionists</description>
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		<title>By: Hello</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/should-vegans-soften-our-tone/comment-page-1/#comment-5753</link>
		<dc:creator>Hello</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 00:58:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=836#comment-5753</guid>
		<description>I completely agree. Honestly, I have met a lot of vegans who were really rude, irrational, pretentious, arrogant, etc. I&#039;ve met a couple who were excessively kind and caring. I&#039;m a vegan because I don&#039;t want to support the mistreatment of animals. If other people who happen to be nasty, self-righteous, egotistical pricks decide to be vegan too, that&#039;s not my problem, and I don&#039;t have to associate with them. I&#039;m happy with my decision. I&#039;m doing this for ME, and for the animals. Not for anyone else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I completely agree. Honestly, I have met a lot of vegans who were really rude, irrational, pretentious, arrogant, etc. I&#8217;ve met a couple who were excessively kind and caring. I&#8217;m a vegan because I don&#8217;t want to support the mistreatment of animals. If other people who happen to be nasty, self-righteous, egotistical pricks decide to be vegan too, that&#8217;s not my problem, and I don&#8217;t have to associate with them. I&#8217;m happy with my decision. I&#8217;m doing this for ME, and for the animals. Not for anyone else.</p>
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		<title>By: Bea Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/should-vegans-soften-our-tone/comment-page-1/#comment-1737</link>
		<dc:creator>Bea Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:40:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=836#comment-1737</guid>
		<description>Because I remember the numbness and the dis-connect when I was eating animals I try to understand where other people&#039;s heads are at (or not).  Until I hear someone vocally pronounce their indifference to animal suffering I try to coax them toward my position with examples of comparing egrets to &quot;chickens&quot; or dogs to &quot;pigs&quot;.  Once that connection is made it&#039;s hard for them to (intelligently) wiggle out of.

BUT - those that do try to &quot;rationalize&quot; - I have little patience for.  They&#039;ve already made their decision to dis-regard their own rational conclusions.  They choose to  surrender their intellect to whim, it&#039;s hard not to be critical of such people... whatever the issue might be.  

I usually don&#039;t persue the conversation much further... it only escalates; and with most, it&#039;s an argument that can&#039;t be won.  Focus on the ones with objective open minds.  They may be swayed in time to think clear headed about the very obvious hypocrasy of &quot;loving animals and eating them.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because I remember the numbness and the dis-connect when I was eating animals I try to understand where other people&#8217;s heads are at (or not).  Until I hear someone vocally pronounce their indifference to animal suffering I try to coax them toward my position with examples of comparing egrets to &#8220;chickens&#8221; or dogs to &#8220;pigs&#8221;.  Once that connection is made it&#8217;s hard for them to (intelligently) wiggle out of.</p>
<p>BUT &#8211; those that do try to &#8220;rationalize&#8221; &#8211; I have little patience for.  They&#8217;ve already made their decision to dis-regard their own rational conclusions.  They choose to  surrender their intellect to whim, it&#8217;s hard not to be critical of such people&#8230; whatever the issue might be.  </p>
<p>I usually don&#8217;t persue the conversation much further&#8230; it only escalates; and with most, it&#8217;s an argument that can&#8217;t be won.  Focus on the ones with objective open minds.  They may be swayed in time to think clear headed about the very obvious hypocrasy of &#8220;loving animals and eating them.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Linderella</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/should-vegans-soften-our-tone/comment-page-1/#comment-1732</link>
		<dc:creator>Linderella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:47:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=836#comment-1732</guid>
		<description>I take issue with the idea that we should &quot;soften&quot; our tone. How do you discuss issues of life,death, pain, suffering without offending people? People who don&#039;t want to go vegan use all kinds of excuses to justify what they do...they, in fact, just don&#039;t care enough to want to save the animals from pain and suffering. They are selfish people and become annoyed when they are made to feel guilty by example of vegans. This is why they respond in anger and say we think we are above them. Quite frankly, anyone who puts the animals&#039; lives over their own IS above them. I had one person tell me that as long as they don&#039;t see the suffering, they don&#039;t think about it...out of sight, out of mind.For some reason these folks think animals are beneath humans and it doesn&#039;t matter whether they feel and suffer. My motto: Vegans, keep on doing what  you are doing and sing out the message however and wherever you can. Even one convert is better than none. Thanks for listening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take issue with the idea that we should &#8220;soften&#8221; our tone. How do you discuss issues of life,death, pain, suffering without offending people? People who don&#8217;t want to go vegan use all kinds of excuses to justify what they do&#8230;they, in fact, just don&#8217;t care enough to want to save the animals from pain and suffering. They are selfish people and become annoyed when they are made to feel guilty by example of vegans. This is why they respond in anger and say we think we are above them. Quite frankly, anyone who puts the animals&#8217; lives over their own IS above them. I had one person tell me that as long as they don&#8217;t see the suffering, they don&#8217;t think about it&#8230;out of sight, out of mind.For some reason these folks think animals are beneath humans and it doesn&#8217;t matter whether they feel and suffer. My motto: Vegans, keep on doing what  you are doing and sing out the message however and wherever you can. Even one convert is better than none. Thanks for listening.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/should-vegans-soften-our-tone/comment-page-1/#comment-1728</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 22:42:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=836#comment-1728</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t believe our tone needs to be softened because it cannot, given the issue(s) that this discourse surrounds. When having a conversation about torturing a baby cow, for example, how does one present the message that this is wrong in a &quot;soft tone&quot;? It seems to me that &quot;hardness&quot; emanates the issue itself. I can speak humbly, and respectfully - I ought too - , however, unnecessary suffering of this magnitude is in itself &quot;harsh.&quot; 

These conversations regard difficult subject matter, and therefore, the parlance may take on a forceful tone. This really hasn&#039;t ever been about &quot;mud slinging&quot; in personal conversations between vegans and non-vegans, generally speaking, and nor should it. Respect is necessitated by a free and open discourse. However, to &quot;soften&quot; our tone implies something problematic in the conversation as it currently stands. Which is erroneous, I think. So, the answer to your question Eccentric Vegan, is a resounding NO! As you argue, to &quot;soften&quot; is really a suggestion by proponents of animal exploitation to stop talking about it.   

&quot;It&#039;s just your opinion&quot; is another common attempted counter to our message. It&#039;s a curious response. As you argue, these arguments aren&#039;t reasons at all; they&#039;re conversation-enders. Such responses don&#039;t address our premises, or the support given for our arguments, it is a deflection. It is a cop-out engendered by a lack of reasons.

~ Recent blog post: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.not-quiteright.net/tvg/2008/09/apparently-tobacco-harms-peopl.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Apparently, tobacco hurts people (and mice and rats)&lt;/a&gt; at http://www.not-quiteright.net/tvg ~</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t believe our tone needs to be softened because it cannot, given the issue(s) that this discourse surrounds. When having a conversation about torturing a baby cow, for example, how does one present the message that this is wrong in a &#8220;soft tone&#8221;? It seems to me that &#8220;hardness&#8221; emanates the issue itself. I can speak humbly, and respectfully &#8211; I ought too &#8211; , however, unnecessary suffering of this magnitude is in itself &#8220;harsh.&#8221; </p>
<p>These conversations regard difficult subject matter, and therefore, the parlance may take on a forceful tone. This really hasn&#8217;t ever been about &#8220;mud slinging&#8221; in personal conversations between vegans and non-vegans, generally speaking, and nor should it. Respect is necessitated by a free and open discourse. However, to &#8220;soften&#8221; our tone implies something problematic in the conversation as it currently stands. Which is erroneous, I think. So, the answer to your question Eccentric Vegan, is a resounding NO! As you argue, to &#8220;soften&#8221; is really a suggestion by proponents of animal exploitation to stop talking about it.   </p>
<p>&#8220;It&#8217;s just your opinion&#8221; is another common attempted counter to our message. It&#8217;s a curious response. As you argue, these arguments aren&#8217;t reasons at all; they&#8217;re conversation-enders. Such responses don&#8217;t address our premises, or the support given for our arguments, it is a deflection. It is a cop-out engendered by a lack of reasons.</p>
<p>~ Recent blog post: <a href="http://www.not-quiteright.net/tvg/2008/09/apparently-tobacco-harms-peopl.html" rel="nofollow">Apparently, tobacco hurts people (and mice and rats)</a> at <a href="http://www.not-quiteright.net/tvg" rel="nofollow">http://www.not-quiteright.net/tvg</a> ~</p>
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		<title>By: Eccentric Vegan</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/should-vegans-soften-our-tone/comment-page-1/#comment-1723</link>
		<dc:creator>Eccentric Vegan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=836#comment-1723</guid>
		<description>Alan, I certainly understand your point. We ought to use the method or methods that are most effective for the animals. 

And you&#039;re probably right that the gentle, kind approach is generally more effective on a personal level (though, I can say for a FACT, that guilt-tripping works wonders on a personal level, too). Indeed, helping individuals understand veganism usually involves at least one vegan being exceptionally nice and understanding, walking omnis through it with baby-steps. 

However, on a political and social level, I can&#039;t simply &quot;trust you&quot; that we&#039;re more effective if we soften our tone. For example, if the kind approach were so effective at changing or molding human behavior, why isn&#039;t that the approach governments take? If negativity didn&#039;t work to shift opinion, then why do political campaigns employ so much negativity? 

I&#039;m not completely disagreeing with you, Alan. I would just like to see the actual statistics and data that proves your point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan, I certainly understand your point. We ought to use the method or methods that are most effective for the animals. </p>
<p>And you&#8217;re probably right that the gentle, kind approach is generally more effective on a personal level (though, I can say for a FACT, that guilt-tripping works wonders on a personal level, too). Indeed, helping individuals understand veganism usually involves at least one vegan being exceptionally nice and understanding, walking omnis through it with baby-steps. </p>
<p>However, on a political and social level, I can&#8217;t simply &#8220;trust you&#8221; that we&#8217;re more effective if we soften our tone. For example, if the kind approach were so effective at changing or molding human behavior, why isn&#8217;t that the approach governments take? If negativity didn&#8217;t work to shift opinion, then why do political campaigns employ so much negativity? </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not completely disagreeing with you, Alan. I would just like to see the actual statistics and data that proves your point.</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/should-vegans-soften-our-tone/comment-page-1/#comment-1722</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:28:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=836#comment-1722</guid>
		<description>I agree with you. If someone wants to go vegan to help end the suffering of animals, then they&#039;ll go vegan. It has nothing to do with not wanting to be associated with &quot;hardcore&quot; (or whatever adjective you want to put in here) vegans.

Also, these people can easily find vegans who have a &quot;softer&quot; edge. Colleen at CompassionateCooks.com is one of them.

I think blaming &quot;hardcore&quot; vegans is just an excuse to keep eating eggs and drinking milk.

~ Recent blog post: &lt;a href=&quot;http://diggingthroughthedirt.blogspot.com/2008/09/farmed-animal-industry-spending.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Farmed-Animal Industry Spending Millions to Quash Animal-Welfare Bill&lt;/a&gt; at http://www.diggingthroughthedirt.blogspot.com ~</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you. If someone wants to go vegan to help end the suffering of animals, then they&#8217;ll go vegan. It has nothing to do with not wanting to be associated with &#8220;hardcore&#8221; (or whatever adjective you want to put in here) vegans.</p>
<p>Also, these people can easily find vegans who have a &#8220;softer&#8221; edge. Colleen at CompassionateCooks.com is one of them.</p>
<p>I think blaming &#8220;hardcore&#8221; vegans is just an excuse to keep eating eggs and drinking milk.</p>
<p>~ Recent blog post: <a href="http://diggingthroughthedirt.blogspot.com/2008/09/farmed-animal-industry-spending.html" rel="nofollow">Farmed-Animal Industry Spending Millions to Quash Animal-Welfare Bill</a> at <a href="http://www.diggingthroughthedirt.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.diggingthroughthedirt.blogspot.com</a> ~</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/should-vegans-soften-our-tone/comment-page-1/#comment-1721</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=836#comment-1721</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a vegan and I learned this lesson the hard way. It&#039;s the heart of sanctimony to say we don&#039;t need to soften our message because people who don&#039;t want to hear it are just making excuses.

The bottom line is that it doesn&#039;t matter who&#039;s right. It matters that animals are suffering and dying. If we&#039;re secure and confident enough in our own actions and the reasons why they make a difference in the world, we can show the rest of the world an example that isn&#039;t difficult, angry or extreme.

Veganism isn&#039;t a temple for the righteous whose doors you only get to pass through if you&#039;re personally pure enough. Trust me, pointing a finger at &quot;them&quot; and showing all the reasons they&#039;re wrong won&#039;t help a single animal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a vegan and I learned this lesson the hard way. It&#8217;s the heart of sanctimony to say we don&#8217;t need to soften our message because people who don&#8217;t want to hear it are just making excuses.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that it doesn&#8217;t matter who&#8217;s right. It matters that animals are suffering and dying. If we&#8217;re secure and confident enough in our own actions and the reasons why they make a difference in the world, we can show the rest of the world an example that isn&#8217;t difficult, angry or extreme.</p>
<p>Veganism isn&#8217;t a temple for the righteous whose doors you only get to pass through if you&#8217;re personally pure enough. Trust me, pointing a finger at &#8220;them&#8221; and showing all the reasons they&#8217;re wrong won&#8217;t help a single animal.</p>
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