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	<title>Comments on: Not Just Skin Deep (PETA&#8217;s &#8220;Save The Whales&#8221; Billboard)</title>
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	<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/not-just-skin-deep/</link>
	<description>vegan theory, vegan activism, vegan video, vegan food and vegan resources for vegans, vegetarians, animal rights activists, animal liberationists, and abolitionists</description>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/not-just-skin-deep/comment-page-1/#comment-12811</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Dec 2010 23:53:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=4723#comment-12811</guid>
		<description>PETA was my first introduction to activism at 14, and for a long time I did support them. But I grew up, and I can&#039;t help but despise them now. I think what they do it actually counter productive. They do nothing to challenge the ideas that allow us to view animals and the environment as means to our ends and which allow us to not even consider the suffering of animals.  if we acknowledge that it is wrong to treat animals as means to our (given rather petty) ends, then how can we not acknowledge that it&#039;s wrong to treat women in much the same way? An effective animal rights campaign needs to address the structural systems that allow us to treat both women and animals as objects for consumption. Otherwise, it&#039;s useless. Look at the dialouges about meat consumption and masculinity that we hear so often, which are just dripping with misogyny? Masculinity is defined by (hetero)sexuality and by meat consumption. Not consuming meat means you are gay, and therefore like a women, for being compassionate. And being like a women is the worst thing possible. Without breaking down these ideas, how can we hope for a future were animals are treated as they deserve- like the living, feeling, morally considerable creatures that they are? 
and anyways, 
these stats are useless. they say nothing. you&#039;re not going to convince anyone to go veg because they&#039;ll lose weigh. And there&#039;s so many reasons to do it that have nothing to do with being ashamed about your body. 

bit of a rant, sorry!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PETA was my first introduction to activism at 14, and for a long time I did support them. But I grew up, and I can&#8217;t help but despise them now. I think what they do it actually counter productive. They do nothing to challenge the ideas that allow us to view animals and the environment as means to our ends and which allow us to not even consider the suffering of animals.  if we acknowledge that it is wrong to treat animals as means to our (given rather petty) ends, then how can we not acknowledge that it&#8217;s wrong to treat women in much the same way? An effective animal rights campaign needs to address the structural systems that allow us to treat both women and animals as objects for consumption. Otherwise, it&#8217;s useless. Look at the dialouges about meat consumption and masculinity that we hear so often, which are just dripping with misogyny? Masculinity is defined by (hetero)sexuality and by meat consumption. Not consuming meat means you are gay, and therefore like a women, for being compassionate. And being like a women is the worst thing possible. Without breaking down these ideas, how can we hope for a future were animals are treated as they deserve- like the living, feeling, morally considerable creatures that they are?<br />
and anyways,<br />
these stats are useless. they say nothing. you&#8217;re not going to convince anyone to go veg because they&#8217;ll lose weigh. And there&#8217;s so many reasons to do it that have nothing to do with being ashamed about your body. </p>
<p>bit of a rant, sorry!</p>
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		<title>By: meerkat</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/not-just-skin-deep/comment-page-1/#comment-8258</link>
		<dc:creator>meerkat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 01:27:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=4723#comment-8258</guid>
		<description>Gee, I&#039;m a fat vegan.  It must be because I have vegan pizza once a month, or maybe every other month.  Can&#039;t remember the last time I had cupcakes, but I did get cake at my birthday!  Educate yourself, amyvegan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gee, I&#8217;m a fat vegan.  It must be because I have vegan pizza once a month, or maybe every other month.  Can&#8217;t remember the last time I had cupcakes, but I did get cake at my birthday!  Educate yourself, amyvegan.</p>
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		<title>By: amyvegan</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/not-just-skin-deep/comment-page-1/#comment-7239</link>
		<dc:creator>amyvegan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 02:19:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=4723#comment-7239</guid>
		<description>i know several very fat vegans. vegan cupcakes, vegan pizza...it&#039;s all about overeating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i know several very fat vegans. vegan cupcakes, vegan pizza&#8230;it&#8217;s all about overeating.</p>
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		<title>By: Holly</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/not-just-skin-deep/comment-page-1/#comment-6031</link>
		<dc:creator>Holly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=4723#comment-6031</guid>
		<description>Eccentric Vegan,

As I said before, this is a very harsh way to nudge people in the right direction with their health, and it isn&#039;t only heavier people who need to take that message on board. I am not as thin as I&#039;d like to be, though I am happy to say that when I cut animal products out of my diet, losing weight became a lot easier. Though diet is only a part of a healthy lifestyle, exercise plays a very important role.

As for it&#039;s portrayal of a woman, I didn&#039;t really think of that perspective though perhaps this may be because women generally are more self concious of their bodies especially when it comes to the beach. 

I hardly think to be frank that someone obese is going to become anorexic because of this ad, though I appreciate obese people may have other emotional issues and could lead them to feeling depressed. This is obviously a very sensitive issue and I wholeheartedly agree that it&#039;s derogratory. My views were more to do do with meat eaters (on other sites) giving Vegetarianism/ Veganism a bad press and that if they gave it a try they would see health benefits.

My comment was what I was hoping to be a positive response, and when I mentioned the &quot;truth&quot; I meant the state of health of  a person, not about the fact that Peta called people whales.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eccentric Vegan,</p>
<p>As I said before, this is a very harsh way to nudge people in the right direction with their health, and it isn&#8217;t only heavier people who need to take that message on board. I am not as thin as I&#8217;d like to be, though I am happy to say that when I cut animal products out of my diet, losing weight became a lot easier. Though diet is only a part of a healthy lifestyle, exercise plays a very important role.</p>
<p>As for it&#8217;s portrayal of a woman, I didn&#8217;t really think of that perspective though perhaps this may be because women generally are more self concious of their bodies especially when it comes to the beach. </p>
<p>I hardly think to be frank that someone obese is going to become anorexic because of this ad, though I appreciate obese people may have other emotional issues and could lead them to feeling depressed. This is obviously a very sensitive issue and I wholeheartedly agree that it&#8217;s derogratory. My views were more to do do with meat eaters (on other sites) giving Vegetarianism/ Veganism a bad press and that if they gave it a try they would see health benefits.</p>
<p>My comment was what I was hoping to be a positive response, and when I mentioned the &#8220;truth&#8221; I meant the state of health of  a person, not about the fact that Peta called people whales.</p>
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		<title>By: Eccentric Vegan</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/not-just-skin-deep/comment-page-1/#comment-6030</link>
		<dc:creator>Eccentric Vegan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=4723#comment-6030</guid>
		<description>Holly,
I&#039;m not obese but I take offense. Here&#039;s why I take offense:

- Calling someone a &quot;whale&quot; is not &quot;the truth;&quot; it&#039;s a mean-spirited, anti-fat slur.

- The image shows a woman, not a man. Women already receive most of the fat-shaming in our society, yet women&#039;s bodies aren&#039;t as easily damaged by excess fat as men&#039;s bodies. It clearly comes across as anti-fat, not pro-health.

- I&#039;m not obese, but I&#039;m not a rail either. (my BMI is 24.4 right now) I won&#039;t wear a swimsuit in front of strangers anymore. I&#039;m too self-conscious. That&#039;s directly related to how often I&#039;ve been called fat or ugly. I might be a little more sensitive than other women, but I&#039;m pretty sure my feelings are common.

- Because the billboard is focused on weight, not health, it triggers weight-loss reactions, not health-improvement reactions. That is, instead of promoting vegetarianism, for many people it promotes diet pills, anorexia, etc. 

- Vegetarians are generally 10-20 pounds lighter than non-veg people. For someone who is obese, 10-20 pounds isn&#039;t all that much. They might get healthier on a veg diet and lose some weight, but vegetarianism is not a panacea. They&#039;re still going to get called anti-fat slurs by mean people who think it&#039;s OK to call people &quot;whales.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Holly,<br />
I&#8217;m not obese but I take offense. Here&#8217;s why I take offense:</p>
<p>- Calling someone a &#8220;whale&#8221; is not &#8220;the truth;&#8221; it&#8217;s a mean-spirited, anti-fat slur.</p>
<p>- The image shows a woman, not a man. Women already receive most of the fat-shaming in our society, yet women&#8217;s bodies aren&#8217;t as easily damaged by excess fat as men&#8217;s bodies. It clearly comes across as anti-fat, not pro-health.</p>
<p>- I&#8217;m not obese, but I&#8217;m not a rail either. (my BMI is 24.4 right now) I won&#8217;t wear a swimsuit in front of strangers anymore. I&#8217;m too self-conscious. That&#8217;s directly related to how often I&#8217;ve been called fat or ugly. I might be a little more sensitive than other women, but I&#8217;m pretty sure my feelings are common.</p>
<p>- Because the billboard is focused on weight, not health, it triggers weight-loss reactions, not health-improvement reactions. That is, instead of promoting vegetarianism, for many people it promotes diet pills, anorexia, etc. </p>
<p>- Vegetarians are generally 10-20 pounds lighter than non-veg people. For someone who is obese, 10-20 pounds isn&#8217;t all that much. They might get healthier on a veg diet and lose some weight, but vegetarianism is not a panacea. They&#8217;re still going to get called anti-fat slurs by mean people who think it&#8217;s OK to call people &#8220;whales.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Holly</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/not-just-skin-deep/comment-page-1/#comment-6026</link>
		<dc:creator>Holly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:46:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=4723#comment-6026</guid>
		<description>First of all I&#039;d like to say how refreshing it is to see an online debate about Peta that has a mature approach sharing diverse opinions without name calling or foul language :)

I think this billboard has had a lot of press for the bad reasons, and has painted Peta as a fat hating organisation. I admit that if you were obese, you may find this offensive though can&#039;t help but think; are people only offended by truth? In western society we are taught to avoid the truth to be &quot;polite&quot;. For example, we wouldn&#039;t tell an overweight friend they looked awful in their new dress.

Though if we take this avoidance too far, I believe some people may live in denial about their weight, just as some thin though unfit people may ignore their health problems. I think although harsh, people of all shapes and sizes need to be more self aware of their diet and lifestyle.

I find the main problem is when trying to promote Vegetarian/Veganism is that it carries a lot of myths that I&#039;m sure you have had to correct people on. When reading another blog about this particular billboard, the blog author wrote a blog on how unhealthy Vegetarian foods were(?!)He then proceeded to list food such as fries, Haagen Daaz, onion rings and in reading this was incredulous! I had to then point out that these foods were not vegeatarian, though they could be chosen to be eaten by veggies.

Not only this, but people&#039;s eyes open wide, saying,&quot; but what DO you eat as a Vegan??&quot; imagining every supper a carrot on toast! If people were educated about the health risks as well as the moral factors of animal products from school age, it would be easier to integrate this lifestyle choice more prominently into society. 

Unfortunately I feel though it is far from reach here in the UK as the government makes a fat profit from the farming industry that they would never agree to supporting such a cause. I just hope that with this movement continuing to grow, we can see more changes for the good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all I&#8217;d like to say how refreshing it is to see an online debate about Peta that has a mature approach sharing diverse opinions without name calling or foul language <img src='http://www.vegansoapbox.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I think this billboard has had a lot of press for the bad reasons, and has painted Peta as a fat hating organisation. I admit that if you were obese, you may find this offensive though can&#8217;t help but think; are people only offended by truth? In western society we are taught to avoid the truth to be &#8220;polite&#8221;. For example, we wouldn&#8217;t tell an overweight friend they looked awful in their new dress.</p>
<p>Though if we take this avoidance too far, I believe some people may live in denial about their weight, just as some thin though unfit people may ignore their health problems. I think although harsh, people of all shapes and sizes need to be more self aware of their diet and lifestyle.</p>
<p>I find the main problem is when trying to promote Vegetarian/Veganism is that it carries a lot of myths that I&#8217;m sure you have had to correct people on. When reading another blog about this particular billboard, the blog author wrote a blog on how unhealthy Vegetarian foods were(?!)He then proceeded to list food such as fries, Haagen Daaz, onion rings and in reading this was incredulous! I had to then point out that these foods were not vegeatarian, though they could be chosen to be eaten by veggies.</p>
<p>Not only this, but people&#8217;s eyes open wide, saying,&#8221; but what DO you eat as a Vegan??&#8221; imagining every supper a carrot on toast! If people were educated about the health risks as well as the moral factors of animal products from school age, it would be easier to integrate this lifestyle choice more prominently into society. </p>
<p>Unfortunately I feel though it is far from reach here in the UK as the government makes a fat profit from the farming industry that they would never agree to supporting such a cause. I just hope that with this movement continuing to grow, we can see more changes for the good.</p>
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		<title>By: On Puppies and Pigs</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/not-just-skin-deep/comment-page-1/#comment-5790</link>
		<dc:creator>On Puppies and Pigs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 21:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=4723#comment-5790</guid>
		<description>[...] the PETA billboard continues to receive attention, I figured I&#8217;d send some more eyes to another billboard. This [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the PETA billboard continues to receive attention, I figured I&#8217;d send some more eyes to another billboard. This [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rebecca</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/not-just-skin-deep/comment-page-1/#comment-5789</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 20:08:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=4723#comment-5789</guid>
		<description>I think since most of the people in America are obese most of america is mad. I was once obese and I went vegan which totally changed my life so I dont think what PETA did was wrong. I think everyone needs to stop being babied. Since most people dont agree with PETA on this I know I may seem harsh but thats how I feel on the situation.

And a response to nathan: I hear many vegans tell others that we should put ourselves in the animals place and think of the suffering they go through. Well if you were in the animals position any little bit would help on a factory farm. Nothing is ideal  but each step is still a step forward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think since most of the people in America are obese most of america is mad. I was once obese and I went vegan which totally changed my life so I dont think what PETA did was wrong. I think everyone needs to stop being babied. Since most people dont agree with PETA on this I know I may seem harsh but thats how I feel on the situation.</p>
<p>And a response to nathan: I hear many vegans tell others that we should put ourselves in the animals place and think of the suffering they go through. Well if you were in the animals position any little bit would help on a factory farm. Nothing is ideal  but each step is still a step forward.</p>
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		<title>By: Eccentric Vegan</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/not-just-skin-deep/comment-page-1/#comment-5783</link>
		<dc:creator>Eccentric Vegan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 14:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=4723#comment-5783</guid>
		<description>PS - This isn&#039;t the first time I&#039;ve criticized PETA: http://www.vegansoapbox.com/peta-please-no-klansmen/
And I doubt it will be the last. But that won&#039;t prevent me from recognizing and supporting the good things they do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS &#8211; This isn&#8217;t the first time I&#8217;ve criticized PETA: <a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/peta-please-no-klansmen/" rel="nofollow">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/peta-please-no-klansmen/</a><br />
And I doubt it will be the last. But that won&#8217;t prevent me from recognizing and supporting the good things they do.</p>
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		<title>By: Eccentric Vegan</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/not-just-skin-deep/comment-page-1/#comment-5752</link>
		<dc:creator>Eccentric Vegan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 00:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=4723#comment-5752</guid>
		<description>For Matt&#039;s clarification:

a) My point in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.vegansoapbox.com/behaving-respectfully-in-the-face-of-disrespect/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Behaving Respectfully&quot;&lt;/a&gt; was that if anyone wants to argue efficacy (rather than ethics) to prefer certain advocacy methods over others, AND they intend to actually convince people who have a different opinion, they need to appeal to the people they wish to convince by offering reliable proof that their preferred methods are more effective than the alternatives. Personal anecdotes won&#039;t cut it.

b) My point in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.vegansoapbox.com/do-it-anyway/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Do It Anyway&quot;&lt;/a&gt; was that no matter what method you choose, some people will complain. My point wasn&#039;t that you ought to ignore valid criticism; my point was that you can&#039;t let mere criticism stop you. If you advocate for animals, speak up! Don&#039;t let anyone silence you.

c) My point in the post above is that PETA&#039;s anti-fat billboard is mean-spirited because it focuses on fat as the negative quality in people, not on poor health or animal-eating.  However, I won&#039;t take a stand on whether or not I think it&#039;s effective or whether or not the net benefit is worth the harm. And I&#039;m not sure whether the end justifies the means. I&#039;m not going to make that call here and now. I will say: I&#039;d prefer PETA to use different methods than fat-shaming.

Sorry if that&#039;s too much nuance and not enough of a hard-line, easy-to-understand stance, but that&#039;s where I stand... in the gray areas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For Matt&#8217;s clarification:</p>
<p>a) My point in <a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/behaving-respectfully-in-the-face-of-disrespect/" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Behaving Respectfully&#8221;</a> was that if anyone wants to argue efficacy (rather than ethics) to prefer certain advocacy methods over others, AND they intend to actually convince people who have a different opinion, they need to appeal to the people they wish to convince by offering reliable proof that their preferred methods are more effective than the alternatives. Personal anecdotes won&#8217;t cut it.</p>
<p>b) My point in <a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/do-it-anyway/" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Do It Anyway&#8221;</a> was that no matter what method you choose, some people will complain. My point wasn&#8217;t that you ought to ignore valid criticism; my point was that you can&#8217;t let mere criticism stop you. If you advocate for animals, speak up! Don&#8217;t let anyone silence you.</p>
<p>c) My point in the post above is that PETA&#8217;s anti-fat billboard is mean-spirited because it focuses on fat as the negative quality in people, not on poor health or animal-eating.  However, I won&#8217;t take a stand on whether or not I think it&#8217;s effective or whether or not the net benefit is worth the harm. And I&#8217;m not sure whether the end justifies the means. I&#8217;m not going to make that call here and now. I will say: I&#8217;d prefer PETA to use different methods than fat-shaming.</p>
<p>Sorry if that&#8217;s too much nuance and not enough of a hard-line, easy-to-understand stance, but that&#8217;s where I stand&#8230; in the gray areas.</p>
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