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	<title>Comments on: Another Heated Debate</title>
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	<description>vegan theory, vegan activism, vegan video, vegan food and vegan resources for vegans, vegetarians, animal rights activists, animal liberationists, and abolitionists</description>
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		<title>By: Intersectionality &#8216;Round the Interwebs, No. 18: My Bloody Valentine &#187; V for Vegan: easyVegan.info</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/another-heated-debate/comment-page-3/#comment-8056</link>
		<dc:creator>Intersectionality &#8216;Round the Interwebs, No. 18: My Bloody Valentine &#187; V for Vegan: easyVegan.info</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:18:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=6893#comment-8056</guid>
		<description>[...] Plus, she has a vagina and a BA in Women&#8217;s Studies! And I say (repeat) this with not a whit of sarcasm or mockery, as male privilege &#8211; much like white privilege [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Plus, she has a vagina and a BA in Women&#8217;s Studies! And I say (repeat) this with not a whit of sarcasm or mockery, as male privilege &#8211; much like white privilege [...]</p>
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		<title>By: make him proud</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/another-heated-debate/comment-page-3/#comment-8030</link>
		<dc:creator>make him proud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 01:40:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=6893#comment-8030</guid>
		<description>Have you ever noticed how the tactics of Francione and his followers are very similiar to that of the Republicans? It&#039;s interesting to note.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you ever noticed how the tactics of Francione and his followers are very similiar to that of the Republicans? It&#8217;s interesting to note.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon Becker</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/another-heated-debate/comment-page-3/#comment-8029</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Becker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 01:33:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=6893#comment-8029</guid>
		<description>Jeffrey,

I encourage you to read this essay by Rick Bogle which critiques Francione&#039;s position against illegal direct action to defend the rights of other animals:
http://primateresearch.blogspot.com/2007/08/animal-rights-violence.html

The two comments following the essay are also worth reading.

Also, I believe the individual rescued/liberated from enslavement and murder at the hands of the flesh, vivisection, or other industries wouldn&#039;t consider such lifesaving actions to be &quot;destructive B.S.,&quot; such as this bird freed from the torture of captivity: http://www.directaction.info/news_oct15_09.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeffrey,</p>
<p>I encourage you to read this essay by Rick Bogle which critiques Francione&#8217;s position against illegal direct action to defend the rights of other animals:<br />
<a href="http://primateresearch.blogspot.com/2007/08/animal-rights-violence.html" rel="nofollow">http://primateresearch.blogspot.com/2007/08/animal-rights-violence.html</a></p>
<p>The two comments following the essay are also worth reading.</p>
<p>Also, I believe the individual rescued/liberated from enslavement and murder at the hands of the flesh, vivisection, or other industries wouldn&#8217;t consider such lifesaving actions to be &#8220;destructive B.S.,&#8221; such as this bird freed from the torture of captivity: <a href="http://www.directaction.info/news_oct15_09.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.directaction.info/news_oct15_09.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey at Coolwater4animals</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/another-heated-debate/comment-page-2/#comment-8018</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey at Coolwater4animals</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:59:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=6893#comment-8018</guid>
		<description>Congratulations, EV!

I think you&#039;ve just made Gary Francione&#039;s point for why gratuitous T&amp;A campaigns are not the &quot;harmless antics&quot; Ingrid Newkirk says they are and why underground paramilitary operations are so much destructive B.S. and indeed ALL &quot;activism&quot;, if it is to be successful, must instead be unceasingly focused on nothing more than clear, consistent, continuous, nonviolent Abolitionist Vegan education.
.
.-= Jeffrey at Coolwater4animals´s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://coolwater4animals.wordpress.com/2009/08/31/going-vegan-in-stages/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Going Vegan in Stages?&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Congratulations, EV!</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;ve just made Gary Francione&#8217;s point for why gratuitous T&amp;A campaigns are not the &#8220;harmless antics&#8221; Ingrid Newkirk says they are and why underground paramilitary operations are so much destructive B.S. and indeed ALL &#8220;activism&#8221;, if it is to be successful, must instead be unceasingly focused on nothing more than clear, consistent, continuous, nonviolent Abolitionist Vegan education.<br />
.<br />
.-= Jeffrey at Coolwater4animals´s last blog ..<a href="http://coolwater4animals.wordpress.com/2009/08/31/going-vegan-in-stages/" rel="nofollow">Going Vegan in Stages?</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: Eccentric Vegan</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/another-heated-debate/comment-page-2/#comment-8015</link>
		<dc:creator>Eccentric Vegan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=6893#comment-8015</guid>
		<description>Jeffrey: You may have heard &quot;consent is manufactured,&quot; yes? The same principle applies to demand. Demand is manufactured, too.

Just visit your local elementary school cafeteria and look at the posters on the wall and the foods on kids&#039; plates. They eat the cheap, leftover beef that is the surplus of the dairy industry. They learn that it&#039;s normal to eat dead animals and to drink the milk that those dead animals produced when they were alive. 

Those kids aren&#039;t actually demanding meat. It&#039;s absurd to argue that all those animals lives were destroyed due to &quot;consumer demand.&quot; In many cases, the demand doesn&#039;t exist. It just doesn&#039;t.

And while some animal advocates work tirelessly to educate consumers and reduce their demand for animal products, the animal exploiters work to manufacture demand among younger consumers. Thus, until or unless we out-number or out-smart them, we can never undo all of their handiwork.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeffrey: You may have heard &#8220;consent is manufactured,&#8221; yes? The same principle applies to demand. Demand is manufactured, too.</p>
<p>Just visit your local elementary school cafeteria and look at the posters on the wall and the foods on kids&#8217; plates. They eat the cheap, leftover beef that is the surplus of the dairy industry. They learn that it&#8217;s normal to eat dead animals and to drink the milk that those dead animals produced when they were alive. </p>
<p>Those kids aren&#8217;t actually demanding meat. It&#8217;s absurd to argue that all those animals lives were destroyed due to &#8220;consumer demand.&#8221; In many cases, the demand doesn&#8217;t exist. It just doesn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>And while some animal advocates work tirelessly to educate consumers and reduce their demand for animal products, the animal exploiters work to manufacture demand among younger consumers. Thus, until or unless we out-number or out-smart them, we can never undo all of their handiwork.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey at Coolwater4animals</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/another-heated-debate/comment-page-2/#comment-8012</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey at Coolwater4animals</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:51:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=6893#comment-8012</guid>
		<description>EV: I may not have made myself clear. The violence I referred to that nonviolent illegal activity brings to activists is sad but of little consequence. They know going in they, as Mr. Becker states, &quot;risk their liberty&quot;. No, the violence their activity brings is onto the nonhumans they claim to act for is of far greater consequence. For it shall continue unabated as long as there is demand! The illegal non-sentient physical property damage they engage in, though nonviolent in *your* understanding, is precisely the violence history has shown us does not work. This violence bears no comparison with the nonviolent actions of civil rights workers in &#039;60&#039;s US history. Most, if not all the actions you refer to were found to be legal under federal law.
.-= Jeffrey at Coolwater4animals´s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://coolwater4animals.wordpress.com/2009/08/31/going-vegan-in-stages/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Going Vegan in Stages?&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EV: I may not have made myself clear. The violence I referred to that nonviolent illegal activity brings to activists is sad but of little consequence. They know going in they, as Mr. Becker states, &#8220;risk their liberty&#8221;. No, the violence their activity brings is onto the nonhumans they claim to act for is of far greater consequence. For it shall continue unabated as long as there is demand! The illegal non-sentient physical property damage they engage in, though nonviolent in *your* understanding, is precisely the violence history has shown us does not work. This violence bears no comparison with the nonviolent actions of civil rights workers in &#8217;60&#8242;s US history. Most, if not all the actions you refer to were found to be legal under federal law.<br />
.-= Jeffrey at Coolwater4animals´s last blog ..<a href="http://coolwater4animals.wordpress.com/2009/08/31/going-vegan-in-stages/" rel="nofollow">Going Vegan in Stages?</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: Eccentric Vegan</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/another-heated-debate/comment-page-2/#comment-8010</link>
		<dc:creator>Eccentric Vegan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=6893#comment-8010</guid>
		<description>And thank you, Brandon, for providing those links. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And thank you, Brandon, for providing those links. <img src='http://www.vegansoapbox.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Eccentric Vegan</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/another-heated-debate/comment-page-2/#comment-8009</link>
		<dc:creator>Eccentric Vegan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:10:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=6893#comment-8009</guid>
		<description>Jeffrey said, &quot;ALL illegal activity, no matter how &#039;nonviolent&#039; brings more violence simply because of its *illegality*.&quot;

It&#039;s possible that you&#039;re correct, in the short term. But in the long term it&#039;s debatable.

The Civil Rights activists who refused to move to the back of the bus, who sat down at lunch counters, who demonstrated peacefully through sit-ins, etc. would probably have agreed that any short term violent reactions to their nonviolent illegal actions were worth it in the long run.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeffrey said, &#8220;ALL illegal activity, no matter how &#8216;nonviolent&#8217; brings more violence simply because of its *illegality*.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s possible that you&#8217;re correct, in the short term. But in the long term it&#8217;s debatable.</p>
<p>The Civil Rights activists who refused to move to the back of the bus, who sat down at lunch counters, who demonstrated peacefully through sit-ins, etc. would probably have agreed that any short term violent reactions to their nonviolent illegal actions were worth it in the long run.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon Becker</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/another-heated-debate/comment-page-2/#comment-8008</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Becker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=6893#comment-8008</guid>
		<description>Also see:

&quot;You Don&#039;t Support the ALF Because Why?&quot; by Steve Best
http://www.animalliberationfront.com/ALFront/Best--Support%20ALF.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also see:</p>
<p>&#8220;You Don&#8217;t Support the ALF Because Why?&#8221; by Steve Best<br />
<a href="http://www.animalliberationfront.com/ALFront/Best--Support%20ALF.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.animalliberationfront.com/ALFront/Best&#8211;Support%20ALF.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Brandon Becker</title>
		<link>http://www.vegansoapbox.com/another-heated-debate/comment-page-2/#comment-8007</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Becker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:29:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/?p=6893#comment-8007</guid>
		<description>Recommended reading for anyone who accepts only state-sanctioned tactics and condemns underground activists those who risk their liberty for the lives of other animals:

&quot;Beyond Pacifism&quot; by Daniel Peyser
http://www.abolitionist-online.com/article-issue05_beyond.pacifism.daniel-peyser.shtml
.-= Brandon Becker´s last undefined ..&lt;a href=&quot;0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;If you register your site for free at &lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Recommended reading for anyone who accepts only state-sanctioned tactics and condemns underground activists those who risk their liberty for the lives of other animals:</p>
<p>&#8220;Beyond Pacifism&#8221; by Daniel Peyser<br />
<a href="http://www.abolitionist-online.com/article-issue05_beyond.pacifism.daniel-peyser.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.abolitionist-online.com/article-issue05_beyond.pacifism.daniel-peyser.shtml</a><br />
.-= Brandon Becker´s last undefined ..<a href="0" rel="nofollow">If you register your site for free at </a> =-.</p>
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