75% Vegan Vs. 100% Vegetarian
Print This Post
Some of these veggie meats shown here are vegan, others are vegetarian.
- Is it ALWAYS better to choose the vegan option?
- What if the choice is between a) choosing the vegetarian option 100% of the time or b) choosing the vegan option 75% of the time and choosing the dead animal version 25% of the time? Then which is better?
Eric Marcus discusses Mark Bittman as well as the anti-vegetarian tribe:
being 75 percent vegan is vastly better in every respect than being 100 percent vegetarian. Bittman’s take:
“I’m not in favor of vegetarianism, really, because if you replace half a pound of meat with half a pound of cheese, you haven’t done anything. [...]
That echoes what I’ve often said in my talks, when I refer to myself as an anti-vegetarian activist.
My criticisms:
1. Marcus is allying himself with an animal-eater. And when talking about animal suffering, that’s a dangerous thing to do. All the while, he’s alienating vegetarian allies.
2. 75% vegan isn’t mutually exclusive from 100% vegetarian, in fact, most vegetarians are probably at least 75% vegan. When I was vegetarian, I was at least 75% vegan.
3. 75% vegan ISN’T better than 100% vegetarian, because even most vegetarians don’t eat more than 25% of their diet in dairy and eggs. Really, who replaces half a pound of meat with half a pound of cheese? Who does that? Not most vegetarians.
4. The vegetarian is more likely to go 100% vegan eventually than the 75% vegan. Most vegans were vegetarians first.
5. There is a bright line difference between flesh (meat) and secretions (milk and eggs). There’s an ethical difference and a convenience difference as well. Vegetarianism is easier and more accepted by society at large than veganism. Besides, vegetarianism has a stronger ethical backbone than 75% vegan.
What do you think? Do Marcus and Bittman have a point or are they off base?
Quote:
“There is a bright line difference between flesh (meat) and secretions (milk and eggs). There’s an ethical difference and a convenience difference as well.”
A “convenience” difference perhaps, however, “convenience” isn’t a premise on which to make a normative judgement. Removing that from the equation (I know you weren’t doing that), then, the ethical “bright line” begins to dim. Consequentially, in a theoretical vacume, secretions may produce less harm than the production of flesh; however, contextually, it stands to reason that the production of secretions will net a greater harm than mere flesh. Deotonlogcically, depending on how you reason, the two — flesh and secretions — are analagous, ethically speaking.
~ Recent blog post: Rats and mice (and a bad argument) ~
Hell, my last comment was poorly spellchecked
Re-reading the cited article, I think I agree with Marcus’ conclusion. Given that your argument assumes a “harm hierarchy” — flesh and secretions — (which is question begging) that I reject, eating a single non-vegan meal per day may have more ethical merit than being “100% vegetarian.” However, your practical comment,
75% vegan ISN’T better than 100% vegetarian, because even most vegetarians don’t eat more than 25% of their diet in dairy and eggs. Really, who replaces half a pound of meat with half a pound of cheese? Who does that? Not most vegetarians.
is accurate.
~ Recent blog post: Rats and mice (and a bad argument) ~
I think 75% vegan is redundant. Either you are or you aren’t. 75% vegan without meat is simply 100% vegetarian, and with meat, it’s Omni. As to who would replace a pound of meat with a pound of cheese, that would be me, since it’s incredibly addictive stuff for me. I had a harder time dropping cheese than anything else.
~ Recent blog post: Fat and Lazy Pants ~
I think that getting a typical omnivore to eat a vegan meal is a great thing. I have a friend who isn’t a vegan, but when we eat out, she usually gets the vegan option. I don’t expect her to, and I don’t make comments if she doesn’t. I like her attitude, which is, “It’s not going to kill me to eat one meal without animal products. I don’t have to have meat or dairy at every single meal.”
But vegetarians don’t get the whole picture, and they already think they are making a good, moral choice. And I think if you allow yourself to have animal secretion, it’s easy to get carried away and have cream sauce, cheese, and eggs daily, or even with every meal. Someone can have pancakes for breakfast (with eggs in milk in the batter), a sandwich with cheese on it for lunch, and then dinner with burritos with cheese and sour cream. They think they’ve done good all day.
So, if someone has oatmeal with soymilk for breakfast, a salad with oil-based dressing and french fries for lunch, and then they have baked chicken for dinner with rice and steamed veggies, that would be better then having secretions for all three meals.
It depends on the audience. If the audience is omnivores, then suggesting that they eat vegan meals as often as possible is good. Suggesting that they go vegetarian is not so good, because they will just substitute secretions for everything.
“vegetarians don’t get the whole picture, and they already think they are making a good, moral choice.”
As someone who tried veganism, failed, stayed ethical vegetarian for 20 years, and then went vegan for good, I can say honestly and certainly that it was NOT lack of understanding that kept me vegetarian and not vegan. It was social pressure and custom. It was the same thing that kept me a smoker for 6 years.
Habits =/= beliefs.
As someone who tried veganism, failed, stayed ethical vegetarian for 20 years, and then went vegan for good, I can say honestly and certainly that it was NOT lack of understanding that kept me vegetarian and not vegan.
Oh, OK. I actually did not know anything about the dairy business when I was a vegetarian. I knew about battery hens, so I didn’t eat eggs, but I didn’t know about how the dairy industry worked until recently.
~ Recent blog post: Sometimes bad is bad ~
veganprimate I like your thinking here,
[b]“So if someone has oatmeal with soymilk for breakfast, a salad with oil-based dressing and french fries for lunch, and then they have baked chicken for dinner with rice and steamed veggies, that would be better then having secretions for all three meals”.[/b]
I like most discussion and ideas about replacing as many omni meals with vegan meals as possible, the more profit we can take from meat production the sooner we bankrupt them, and with more people becoming 75% vegan or 100% vegetarian the sooner we can get a mandate for AR, simplistic maybe, but maybe the fastest track to success
I stopped eating flesh in 1986. I only purchased eggs that ‘claimed’ to be free range, blah, blah, blah. Like “Warrior Two”, cheese was my weakness. After e-mailing one of the egg companies claiming to be free range, blah, blah, blah and having them tell me that ‘in the end’ the hens are sent to a poultry processing plant aka SLAUGHTER house, I quit purchasing any eggs. I was only able to stop buying cheese after the ‘mad cow’ scare here. What did that was a picture of a dairy cow, out in the cold, looking back at the camera with what I saw as a strength I don’t think I have. Dairy cows, like laying hens, misery is just prolonged. I feel bad that I continued to buy ‘free range’ eggs after I quit eating flesh. I feel even worse that I still bought cheese. But my intentions were sincere. Vegetarians are trying. We should try to help them proceed to veganism.
This is posted almost a year ago but i’m still going to respond and hope you read this and maybe even respond.
I’ve been a vegetarian for 11 years, in those 11 years i’ve always felt guilty about eating cheese. Eggs is another story since i get those from someone who basically keeps them as pets. You might say i have no right to take them but at least they’re not as mistreated as most chickens are.
The problems with going vegan are:
1) I live in a place were nobody is vegetarian, the very few that were are back to eating meat and i’ve gotten a lot of crap for it which gets to me sometimes. I’m only human. Going vegan will only make this worse.
When i eat outside my own home ,vegetarian 9 out of the 10 times means: cheese, a lot of cheese. Not even biological or vegetarian cheese. Working far away from my home and bringing a days worth of food with public transportation and bike is not very practical.
If these were the only problems i’d learn how to deal with them but unfortunately that’s not the case.
I’ve tried to go vegan 4 times so far and failed 4 times. And all 4 times i’ve stopped because i really didn’t feel well. After a week or so the cheese cravings went away but i started to feel really emotional or even depressed. I also became really obsessed with food, counting vitamins and started seeing the world really black-white. This happened all 4 times and i really think it was because there was something missing in my diet since there were no other altered circumstances. I’m not sure what it was. If anyone has experienced the same and found out what it was please tell me. I really tried to do it healthy and have tried different approches to it, with help from books and the internet. And i did take B12 a B vitamin complex actually, as well als calcium, magnesium, zink and enough calories, and good proteinsources. But after 2-4 weeks i always quit because I really can’t handle it anymore. I really have the idea now that my body can’t function well on a completely vegan diet.
I used to always think being vegan is hard because the practical and social aspect of it (and the taste of cheese) but not because of health.
Because of my failed attempts i’m reevaluating everything. And one of the thoughts that came up in my mind is:
Assuming I need some kind of animal source food. Even if you think i don’t need any i would still like you to think with me. What would be the least harmful:
I’d say eggs – not yours to take, preferably organic and without killing roosters and not fertelised.
But eggs are not usually available in restaurants (If they are that would be my choice) If vegan food was available then i could eat some eggs at home and vegan during the day. For me that’s not possible though.
So after eggs what should you choose:
Vegetarians would probably say some sort of dairy (maybe honey but i don’t think it’s that nutritious so i’d rather leave that out.)But isn’t fish or even meat a better choice?
if you’d take a pig that would lead a good life. let’s say you raise him/her yourself. It would die younger than it naturally would but during it’s life it would be treated as good as is possible. Dying would hurt sure, all should be done to minimize it.But i expect to feel pain when i die as well. I find it worse that i would take the life away from the pig or would be responsible for it. And if i had to choose an animal it surely wouldn’t be a pig. Eating pigs to me is like eating pets.
But probably i’d rather kill a fish, fish feel pain yes, and a lot of fishingmethods are unnessesary harmful to both the fish and the environment in general. But i do believe (i surely can’t know for sure). fish have a lot less consciousness compored to mammals. I think they miss the familybonds that a lot of mammals have for example.
Eating dairy however means a cow (or other animal) has to have a calf, in the best case the calf would get enough milk to grow. What’s left is not that much so you:
- would need a lot of cows wich gives environmental problems: global warming, and a lot of space, water, grains etc. needed so a lot of “materials” that would have to be pulled from nature.
-give them hormones so they give more milk
-milk them a lot longer than is healthy for them (for as far as it is healthy for them anyway.)
-all of the above (usually)
And doing so without killing the calves for consumption would ask for a lot more room, seperating them so they won’t get preggies. So you would need to do this yourself.And find a cow thats not inbred like most are.
So i’m debating wether it’s better to be lacto veggie or pesco veggie without dairy.
And yes,i know this goes against the idea of Speciesism. But i do believe there is a big difference between what a fish experiences and a cow or human.
And from an environmental point of view i’m sure it’s a different debate. Mercury isn’t very nutricious either. I’m also aware that buying fish or other animals that really have had a good life is most of the time an illusion. In your own kitchen you could choose to eat bugs or eggs. But i’m really wondering if it’s more ethical to kill or abuse.
I don’t want to offend anyone, really respect vegans otherwise I wouldn’t have come here and tried 4 times myself. Veganism is the most compassioned way to live,there’s no doubt in my mind about that, but i’m not so sure anymore wether it’s possible for everyone.
And i would really like to know what you think i should do. I haven’t had any fish in 11 years and really don’t want to.
Sorry if it’s off topic or to long but i’m really doubting on this.